How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

Casters are jobs that have to stay rooted in place to fire a majority of their spells.

Ah, I see you haven't heard the "Good News" about our Lord and Savior, SMN?

Instead of a combo progression like melee and p.ranged, they react to procs and status effects and they have to manage instant cast spells properly for when they can’t stay rooted.

Again, have you met SMN? SMN aside:

WHM has to use Lilies/natural Dia refreshes for when they can't stay rooted and has to slidecast Glare the rest of the time. This is functionally equivalent to RDM, except RDM's base cast is 2 sec instead of 1.5 sec, but in exchange, they get a full 3 sec (0.5+2.5) of slidecast through Dualcast. The only difference here is (a) RDM has procs (which isn't at all a Caster staple as, again, SMN doesn't have them) and (b) a melee phase, which WHM has healing it has to do for the party instead. WHM has less buttons, but similar limitations.

SMN is also a failure of a caster but that’s another discussion.

Heh. "The thing that disproves my point doesn't count...!"

EDIT:

Glarespam has led to an unhealthy sense of accomplishment

...and there it is.

This, I think, is the truth behind the "Healers need more DPS buttons" argument that no one wants to admit and people attack me for pointing out, but it ultimately comes down to this. Most of the arguments are from people who optimize upset that people who don't can do the same things they do, even though optimization is only one piece of clearing content (fight knowledge, succeeding in the dance, and having 7 dancer partners who can do it with you being the parts left out)

It was fine in ARR because of how damage gets unpredictably spread, but it does not fit EW fights.

Funny you say this, considering most "care bear healers" WANT ARR type fights back, which would fix this whole mess then, now wouldn't it?

Dealing damage is the king of utility, so all jobs should reflect that.

No, it isn't. It by definition isn't utility at all by any MMO definition of the term, which is something more like "non-damage abilities that can aid in clearing content or overcoming challenges". By general accepted definition, damage CAN'T be utility, much less its king.

IMHO, I find it strange that you consider removing Glarespam to be forcing damage down healer’s throats while simultaneously being fine with every other healer getting objectively more engaging gameplay.

SUBjectively more engaging gameplay. As I've said before, I consider DoT juggling annoying, not engaging.

And the point stands: If you're forcing things on people against their will, even though you have 75% of the other options all yours that they now don't have (because they've been changed to no longer reflect their preferred playstyle), YES, this is force.

Again, YOU like DoT juggling and buff/debuff/procs. That's GREAT!

That's why I'm literally arguing for you to have THREE WHOLE HEALER JOBS devoted to you and your preferred gameplay! For most of FFXIV's history, that's be the ENTIRE NUMBER OF HEALING JOBS in the game! How is that not good enough for you?

Yes, healers aren’t a part of the caster role, but they are still casters.

By game definition, they are not. They are Healers. That's like saying Tanks are Melee when the game clearly makes a distinction. Tanks, for example, have no positionals (would be kinda hard to land for the MT), and PLD is as much a Caster (or Ranged, if you prefer) as SMN is.

They're Healers. Again, there is a role for Casters, you are welcome to try it out.

I’m not saying to give healers a completely fleshed out kit made specifically for damage like casters, I just want something more than Glare Dia Misery. Literally anything more than that please.

And under this hypothetical change, you'd be getting it!

SCH, AST, and SGE would ALL have more than Glare/Dia/Misery and be right there for you to pick up. Your picture says your Main Class is Scholar Lv 90, so what's the problem?

Tanks are not melee jobs and yet they have engaging combo-progression rotations, even WAR.

Define "engaging".

Also: Have you heard of our Prince of Light, MCH, which has a combo-progression rotation? Is MCH a Melee Job?

It seems your categorization of Jobs is a smidge off. What defines a Melee is combos, but also having to stay in melee and maximize uptime and also having to land positionals or suffering a DPS loss. Indeed, that last point is what makes Melee distinct, and Tanks (and MCH) don't do it, and thus are not Melees.

I’ll never, ever, ever, ever understand this point.

Because:

1) You aren't trying to, and,

2) You're not even paying attention to what the point is: Considering how I've asked you a number of times now who is arguing for the straw man you're attacking, it's clear you can't understand the point because you aren't even acknowledging the correct point you're opposed to, you're fighting a straw man caricature of it that doesn't even exist.

GAMES SHOULD BE HARD.

Says who?

They should CHALLENGE you.

FFXIV's boss mechanics challenge people, regardless of what their Job rotations are. So the game ALREADY does this, even with Glarespam.

It makes the feeling of success more IMPACTFUL.

To who? You?

And everyone else is the same as you?

How did you arrive at the conclusion everyone else is the same as you are?

Combat should at least have a higher skill ceiling.

It does?

Bosses in FFXIV are not Patchwerk tank and spanks. Bosses have mechanics that must be performed. A Job could have ZERO buttons and only autoattack and the boss fights would already be challenging in that sense. The rotations and complexity are only additional layers on top.

[EDIT2: To flesh this out a bit more - when MMOs started, the fights we have today would be unheard of. Most fights WERE tank and spank with some modification, such having to dispell something or deal with a few adds that also largely performed autoattacks. Hunter rotations in Molten Core Vanilla WoW were literally autoattack since the bosses had a hard limit of debuffs AND classes didn't have good agro management abilities. Mechanics like FFXIV's today would have blown people's minds and literally be unclearable for gamers at the time since they'd have no idea what all the mechanics and tells and debuffs and so on were or have any idea how to approach resolving them. Anyone saying fights aren't AT LEAST challenging is either lying, jaded, or both.]

If players don’t want challenging content, why even consider doing Extremes and Savage?

Largely because of friends wanting to do them and because gear is gated behind them. If Savage gear and Extreme/Savage mounts and titles were available without having to clear that content, no one would care.

AND BEFORE YOU SAY IT: It's still locked behind it. I know what you're going to say "They don't NEED it for the content they do". No one NEEDS anything (other than Ultimates). You can do Savages in (min ilevel) tome gear, too. So that argument doesn't fly. You asked a question and you have the answer, whether or not you want or like it, it is the answer still.

Also: Ultimates exist. That's the "hard" content in FFXIV. Or supposed to be, anyway.

Also, you’re always talking about the majority of healers enjoying this gameplay and how changing all healers will kill the role completely.

Strawman again. If you didn't argue against strawmen so much, we might actually reach an understanding.

I contend content is already challenging for the majority of healers, but also that it would be fine if challenging content was CHALLENGING TO HEAL.

If I wanted to have a challenge to DPS, I'd be playing NIN, not WHM.

but from my experience with the players that I’ve talked to in-game, a majority of players are not satisfied with healer gameplay.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this: When asking players if they are satisfied with healer gameplay, who have you talked to? People who play like you do or a completely random sample of players across all walks of the game-life? Were there members of your sample that don't do Savages or even Extremes? Where there members who only do Extremes as their end-game content and either don't do Savages, have never stepped foot into Savages, or only do Savages rarely when invited/dragged by friends/FC mates?

Or were you only talking to people that raid constantly and are old hands at it? That wouldn't be a good cross-section of the healer community.

Because casual players don’t care about accessibility. People want to do cool stuff. They want to feel like they’re doing something cool. They want something to stay engaged in the game. A game can be both accessible and cool-looking, but it doesn’t hold a strong advantage over a game that feels cool to play. Casual players like to jump from one game to the next if it looks cooler, and only devoted players stay engaged in that old game. Just a trend I noticed.

It could also be that people haven't heard of them. I've literally never heard of any of those games. And I stopped playing things like Smash Bros, Street Fighter, Marvel vs, and so on when they became hyper-technical such that a skilled player could 100-0% someone who didn't know the mechanic of combo-break-reverse-infinite-juggle-madness or whatever. It made it where the games weren't fun or cool and were just "who has spent the most time in online forums reading how to insta-kill-infinite-juggle with overpowered character X".

A lot of people, it turns out, DON'T enjoy that much.

And this "Casual players like to jump from one game to the next" is BS. I'm as casual as they come, apparently, and I tend to stick with games for years. Decades even.

.

But yeah - pay attention to the arguments people are actually making. They're clearly not the ones you're thinking they're making.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

WHM vs WAR comparisons

Beast Gauge & Lily Gauge generates differently.
Infuriate behaves fundamentally different it's almost impossible to compare it with Lucid Dreaming.
Fell Cleaves/Decimate, despite being a gauge spender, still is not an equal comparison to Misery. Each usage interacts with Infuriate by pushing its timer by 7.5s.
Inner Release is similar but nothing like "press and forget for its duration" like PoM does. It also interacts with Beast Gauge & Infuriate timer. You can even choose when you want to fire off that Primal Rend accordingly. In this sense Primal Rend is closer to Misery than Fell Cleave, albeit with shorter manipulation window.

Cutting the benchmarking short---If I want to be completely honest however, these two shouldn't even be compared from first place. Regardless how much WAR is often memed for being the most braindead of the tanks, WHM still pales in comparison in term of complexity it's almost insulting to WARs.

(SMN and things)[...]By game definition, they are not. They are Healers. That's like saying Tanks are Melee when the game clearly makes a distinction. Tanks, for example, have no positionals (would be kinda hard to land for the MT), and PLD is as much a Caster (or Ranged, if you prefer) as SMN is.[...]

I'm not flowerfairy, but I think what they meant by their 'caster' in this context literally means "Spellcasters". Those who operates mostly by casting (e.g. requires somatic incantation).

I think, is the truth behind the "Healers need more DPS buttons" argument that no one wants to admit and people attack me for pointing out, but it ultimately comes down to this. Most of the arguments are from people who optimize upset that people who don't can do the same things they do, even though optimization is only one piece of clearing content

Do you think you know what they're thinking while they're trying to (re)clear the content? Do you honestly think those people really care what other player do? I personally don't give a flying f- whether A, B, C, or D can clear the content because they use some omegalul easy class, or use 12 hotbars to optimize their galaxy brain rotation. The only thing that matters to me is how I personally contribute meaningfully & adequately to the collective goal while also finding ways to have fun.

That is a lie and even you have to know it. An outright lie. Right now, they're able to clear content - content you likely don't WANT them to be able to clear. Unless the difference in DPS between doing the rotation correctly and pressing only Water 3 is 0.0000001% (so that there's literally no point in even having it), they would no longer be able to clear things with their current rotation/playstyle, which WOULD be taking something from them.

You may wish/want/believe they SHOULD have that content taken from them, but don't lie about it.

'Bad healers' (i.e. outdpsed and outhealed by their own co-healer) are already & had been clearing contents albeit outside week 1 and most earlier weeks, so what are you trying to prove wrong here? That is called being the weak link of the group, and yet a clear is still a clear (I have known a few of them in my own FC). These healers wouldn't do much different with simple rotation vs robust rotation if they simply have no real desire to improve, period. Again, do you honestly think people really care about another's progression in general?

Largely because of friends wanting to do them and because gear is gated behind them. If Savage gear and Extreme/Savage mounts and titles were available without having to clear that content, no one would care.
Also: Ultimates exist. That's the "hard" content in FFXIV. Or supposed to be, anyway.

Valid. Still, why do you think things like 'speedruns' or in general 'good runs' exist for? For mounts? Savage gears? Titles? Please just do not answer this question if you're going to say something along the line "I don't care that much to know enough about that part". I will not pry further.

[...]maybe you guys should stop with the hyperboles.

Those hyperboles are rarely intended to portray the reality but nonetheless still a viable (and with proper use, can be fun!) mean to get points across. So instead of focusing too much to these hyperboles (which you have implied so far that you can spot it), how about addressing the actual points instead? Because you're not doing any favor to yourself nor to the discussion by getting over-fixated with it other than virtually avoiding to discuss that very point.

Lastly, please please, for the love of Hydaelyn. Try keeping your post more concise or at least put them in wrapped text box (I remembered you learning how to do it in one of your past discussions months ago). Folks are less eager to respond to you when you keep committing Flood of Texting, good points can often get lost.