How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

This...is gonna be a long one.

Players must also be disappointed when they play a “tank”, right?

Here's my problem dealing with folks like you - I try to give honest answers to your questions and you give me snark and hyperbole completely based ON YOUR SUBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE not realizing there are OTHER PEOPLE WITH OTHER PERSPECTIVES.

I'm not trying to insult you with all the caps, but please read that again.

Where did I say "disappointed"? I completely LOVE WHM right now. I'm not "disappointed" in it or playing it at all. Probably a good 30-40% of healers wouldn't be. And instead of hyperbole, let's make a fair comparison:

WHM has - single nuke attack for single target and AOE, an upkeep buff (DoT), a gauge generator (lilies), and spender (Misery), an oGCD attack (Assize), a damage buff (Presence of Mind), and a resource generation CD (Lucid Dreaming)

So for your comparison to be apt, we'd have to have a WAR with Storm's Path (Glare), Overpower (Holy), Storm's Eye (or a DoT that has the same timer - if anything Eye is easier to manage since it's more flexible about overcapping since you can stack it twice to 60 sec, but this would be your Dia), Beast Gauge (Lily Gauge), Fell Cleave or Decimate (probably Decimate but with Fell Cleave's animation - Misery), Upheaval or Orogony (probably Orogony - Assize), Inner Release (Presence of Mind), and Infuriate (Lucid Dreaming).

This is basically WAR's entire present day kit. The only parts missing here are Heavy Swing and Maim (the 1-2 of the 1-2-3/1-2-4), Primal Rend, Onslaught, Tomahawk, Mythril Tempest, and Decimate, with Upheaval/Orogeny being combined and Fell Cleave/Decimate being combined. You'd literally only be losing the ability to somehow fat-finger an AOE version of your spender and oGCD attack (which no one does; I have them on my second hotbar tab so that's not even possible to do), the secondary attack that Inner Release gives (buzzsaw go brrr), and the 2 of your 1-2 AOE combo, and I'm not even sure taking away Onslaught (gap closer - WHM isn't a melee so doesn't need one, but SGE even has one, so WAR keeping it would make sense) or Tomahawk (since WHM's Glare is already ranged - though if we made Storm's Eye and Storm's Path ranged attacks, we wouldn't need it, I suppose?). And note that WAR's spam doesn't have a cast time, so WHM is already harder than this just having to factor in slidecasting uptime.

So, in practice, this is basically already what WAR is today. So your attempt at "no one would like this" - we're basically already there. And while some people ARE "disappointed" in that, many people love it.

EDIT:

Should we have a tank that does nothing but absorb damage?

I'll ask you, too:

Where did I advocate for WHM having no damage spells?

This is, again, the hyperbole - literally no one is arguing for the straw man you're attacking. What part of "leave WHM like it is today" says to you "remove Glare, Dia, Holy, Misery, and Assize and make WHM only cast healing spells and nothing else"? For this comparison to be accurate, SOMEONE would have to be advocating that. Who is advocating that in this thread/discussion? Can you quote them for me, because I don't see anyone saying remove all WHM damage spells and make them a healer with no damage output. I see someone (me) saying leave WHM as it is today, but as it is today isn't a healer that only heals, so a comparison to a tank that only absorbs damage isn't valid.

Imagine WAR but with no buff upkeep,

Current WHM has Dia. That's an upkeep buff. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Storm's Eye still.

no Inner Release,

Current WHM has Presence of Mind. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Inner Release still.

no Primal Rend,

So...WAR in ShB?

no Infuriate,

Current WHM has Lucid Dreaming. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Infuriate.

no Upheaval.

Current WHM has Assize. So your hypothetical WAR (as I pointed out above) would have Upheaval (though it would be combined with Orogeny, but WAR's don't use their AOE buttons in single target and Orogeny shares a CD with Upheaval, so this is functionally equivalent to Assize, just the hypothetical WAR's Orogeny would also provide a 10 second 10% mitigation buff since your hypothetical WAR's main duty would be mitigation vs WHM's of healing.)

They only have 1-2-3, Fell Cleave, Tomahawk, and Overpower.

As I pointed out above, they'd have Storm's Path (Glare), Overpower (Holy), Storm's Eye (or a DoT that has the same timer - if anything Eye is easier to manage since it's more flexible about overcapping since you can stack it twice to 60 sec, but this would be your Dia), Beast Gauge (Lily Gauge), Fell Cleave or Decimate (probably Decimate but with Fell Cleave's animation - Misery), Upheaval or Orogony (probably Orogony - Assize), Inner Release (Presence of Mind), and Infuriate (Lucid Dreaming). They'd probably also have Tomahawk and Onslaught as utility spells like how WHM has Thin Air and Aquaveil as utility abilities.

From what I understand, this is what you want to happen to WHM for the sake of keeping one job “accessible” for everyone.

Clearly you don't understand, then. Since I want WHM to stay the same, not to lose any abilities. And as I noted, changing WAR to be like WHM is TODAY (even if we ignore the "stay the same" would be WAR staying...the same as it is today...) would be much more interesting than you insist, and the only losses would be 1-2 in their single target combo, -2 in their aoe combo, and combining their single target and AOE oGCD and Beast Gauge skills

There might be people who want even the buff upkeep to go away, but I assure you there will be many more upset with these changes.

And show me where in "leave WHM the way it is RIGHT NOW" one can infer "remove Dia, even though WHM has it RIGHT NOW"? Though, again, Storm's Eye (WAR's upkeep buff) is actually more flexible than WHM's Dia since you can apply it twice to extend the duration to 60 sec. Imagine if WHM could use Dia 2x without overcapping or it being a DPS loss?

SAM players don’t stop complaining about Kaiten and rightfully so.

You got the first half of that correct...

White mages are not lovey-dovey care bears.

They kinda are. Current day WHM's are almost exclusive Padjali who grant succor to the injured and heartsick, and are largely the CNJ version of aristocracy.

Amdapor had a war with Mhach in which Mhach was the aggressor. While the Amdapori were hardly guiltless in the war (they captured and interrogated Nymian SCHs to try to learn their healing arts, though the game doesn't really specify what kind of tactics they used), but they were largely seen as the guardian nation to the non-Mhach minor nations of the 5th Age (of which there were 12, one with each of the Twelve as their patron deity). This would be akin to saying the French or British were evil for fighting the Germans. But, that war broke the world, and the Elementals sealed White (and Black) Magic, as did most of the general public persecute anyone who attempted to practice it. While modern Conjury has a slight edge to it (again, literally no one is advocating removing Glare and Holy from WHM...), the main focus is, as the Job page describes:

"White magic, the arcane art of succor, was conceived eras past that the world might know comfort. Alas, man began perverting its powers for self-gain, and by his wickedness brought about the Sixth Umbral catastrophe. Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals.
Those who would walk the path of the white mage are healers without peer, possessed of the power to deliver comrades from the direst of afflictions—even the icy grip of death itself."

That is the official lore: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/whitemage/

Show me where it says "...and are gods of destruction, rending foes with powerful attack magicks"?

Are these pure-hearted healers upset seeing that the lore of the game does not support their ideology?

See above: The lore supports their ideology.

That said - again, literally no one is advocating for removing WHM attack spells THAT IT HAS RIGHT NOW. So you need a new straw man.

That kit I described does not take away any core heals that WHM has.

1) Where did I say it does?

2) I said that's part of the problem - WHM is one of the few Jobs that doesn't have too many buttons/button bloat (despite having some essentially duplicate spells); it would need some removed to make room for your damage spells.

The healers that like to say “I don’t want to do more! I want to heal! I’m good at healing!”

WHO - in THIS discussion - is saying that?

will not lose anything should there be a mini-DPS rotation waiting for them.

That is a lie and even you have to know it. An outright lie. Right now, they're able to clear content - content you likely don't WANT them to be able to clear. Unless the difference in DPS between doing the rotation correctly and pressing only Water 3 is 0.0000001% (so that there's literally no point in even having it), they would no longer be able to clear things with their current rotation/playstyle, which WOULD be taking something from them.

You may wish/want/believe they SHOULD have that content taken from them, but don't lie about it.

Do these players seriously get a heart attack the moment they see more than 3 damage buttons on their kit?

Do players like you get one the moment you see a kit with only 3?

Personally, I think they should stop adventuring given we see much more horrific things than that.

So you believe there should be no nurses, doctors, or other medical personnel in the world unless they enjoy shooting people as well as treating gunshot wounds?

You talk like more DPS buttons will take away something from healers, but what exactly?

If you take away something someone has, it doesn't matter WHY they want it. What matters is that you're taking it from them. Moreover, if you have a way to get what you want without doing so - e.g. you get THREE healers to yourself - then you wanting to take theirs as well is kind of selfish. Why do you insist on taking it away? Why is it so grievous for you to NOT have all four healers to your liking?

Healers that want to only heal will continue only using heals.

You can't help yourself but to strawman, can you?

Healers that want to do better will use the damage rotation to make their presence more useful in a fight.

People already try to do the best they can. Demanding more from them when you have other options is just petty, childish, and selfish.

It'd be one thing if you and I were arguing and I was saying leave ALL four healers as they are and you were begging to have AT LEAST ONE changed to suit you.

But that isn't the argument.

That's the exist opposite of our argument.

Our argument is to change THREE of them, 75% of them, the TOTAL NUMBER of healers that have existed in all of FFXIV's history until last December (2021), to suit you and having ONLY ONE that does not.

Not...that it matters in the end. The Devs aren't going to do that, and that much is clear at this point.

.

You can bask in your 12 people agreeing with you, btw, but maybe you guys should stop with the hyperbole and strawman.

Either argue the topics under discussion with the people discussing them or don't, but don't make up arguments while ignoring those present because those present aren't as weak as the ones you want to fight instead.