How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

The Problem with ogcds heal pruning is that the entire situation would change from glare spam too a 3 gcd medica spam before you resume glare. It changes one button for another, for 2-3 gcds and that’s it. There is still tons of downtime and 1 button spam just because ff 14 has these fight like this.

Yeah, but isn't that ALREADY an improvement?

Healing would be more engaging if you were actually pressing more buttons, and that would be pressing more buttons.

Further, it would make things like efficiency and MP management actually important concepts. As it is, you blow oGCDs, everything is healed, you then spam Glare and keep Lucid on CD. There's no thought or nuance there.

Actively choosing between Medica or Cure 3, Cure 1 or Cure 2, Regen, or Cure 1/2, and when a situation DOES warrant using one of your more limited oGCD emergency tools already sounds more engaging. And it's not like things would necessarily be massively HARDER, per se (if that's a concern). Anything you heal with Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton or Afflatus Rapture can be directly substituted for Cure 2 and Medica 1, respectively, as they have the same potencies. It's not as direct, but a lot of the other healers have similar tool comparisons, like Lustrate/Excog to Physic/Adlo (ish) and so on. If the MP costs are somewhat reduced and healers actually have MP regen tools that are used for when MP is low and not on CD (imagine if Lucid had a weaker base potency but scaled higher the lower your MP was when you used it, rewarding waiting to use it until lower MP values instead of just keeping it rolling), then there'd still be no problems.

The fact is, healers press far more than 1/2 buttons NOW. Just the community has decided if they aren't GCDs, they don't count. So if healing was shifted to GCDs and oGCD heals were emergency/panic buttons (as they arguably should be), that would already fix the complaints...

...or reveal them as (some people) complaining because they want to DPS instead of heal and don't REALLY want to have to press more buttons if it means more healing buttons...

[Semirhage]

...or reveal them as (some people) complaining because they want to DPS instead of heal and don't REALLY want to have to press more buttons if it means more healing buttons...

HeALeRs shOULd HeAL oNLy, every time.

[AmiableApkallu]

*snip*

My two cents: If you want healers to engage more meaningfully with the healing portion of their toolkits, the first thing that needs to change is encounter design, i.e., the reason healers have those buttons in the first place.

The best, most practical suggestions I've seen so far for increasing outgoing damage from mobs and bosses are:

• Let auto attacks crit again.
• Let auto attacks continue through casts.
• Randomize who gets hit by auto attacks.

I gather that some or all of these used to be aspects of game play before I started playing. Regardless, unpredictability would keep healers from falling asleep while waiting for the next scripted raid wide or tank buster.

[Renathras]

HeALeRs shOULd HeAL oNLy, every time.

ExCePt lItErAlLy nO oNe sAiD ThAt aT AlL.

EDIT: Seriously, SHOW ME where someone - anyone, but especially me - said "healers should heal only". Show me this direct quote. Or admit you're using a strawman fallacy and STOP doing it. Either is fine by me.

My two cents: If you want healers to engage more meaningfully with the healing portion of their toolkits, the first thing that needs to change is encounter design, i.e., the reason healers have those buttons in the first place.

The best, most practical suggestions I've seen so far for increasing outgoing damage from mobs and bosses are:

• Let auto attacks crit again.
• Let auto attacks continue through casts.
• Randomize who gets hit by auto attacks.

I gather that some or all of these used to be aspects of game play before I started playing. Regardless, unpredictability would keep healers from falling asleep while waiting for the next scripted raid wide or tank buster.

Oh I don't disagree with that.

But the encounter design has fallen into the trap of making the oGCDs the common used healing spells and GCDs the rare use emergency tools when most games (and most healer design) does the opposite and to better effect. MOST of our oGCD direct heals/HoTs have a GCD counterpart. The only weird ones are we don't have cast mitigation spells now that Protect (for what it was) is gone.

The big thing is to mix-up damage (instead of 30 sec of nothing then spikes of damage (oGCD through), 30 seconds of nothing which heavily encourages oGCD plans and not using GCD heals. I feel that design is partly driven by the oGCDs, though, as fewer oGCDs that were up less often would mean more smooth damage patterns since the spike system wouldn't work so well anymore for encounter design.

[flowerfairy]

snip

I agree with this. Tetra is such a boring ability because lilies do the same exact thing and is a far more engaging system. It could be removed and WHM would fundamentally not change at all (it would actually be better since you'll have to deal with the consequences of improperly spending lilies). Same with Aquaveil, Exaltation, Krasis, etc. Buttons for the sake of being buttons.

The fact is, healers press far more than 1/2 buttons NOW. Just the community has decided if they aren't GCDs, they don't count. So if healing was shifted to GCDs and oGCD heals were emergency/panic buttons (as they arguably should be), that would already fix the complaints...

...or reveal them as (some people) complaining because they want to DPS instead of heal and don't REALLY want to have to press more buttons if it means more healing buttons...

People aren't complaining about wanting to do DPS instead of healing. The issue is that when there's nothing to heal, you have 1 button to spam and 1 button to press every 30s. It's boring.

The only thing you've said before that I disagree with is that you want 1 healer sacrificed to be that mind-numbing 1 nuke 1 DoT job. BLM's core rotation is not the difficult part of playing BLM. RDM's core rotation is not difficult at all. Old SMN/SCH's core rotation can be considered slightly more difficult than the others but it still gave a lot of leeway. These design philosophies of what a caster can do should be applied to all healers because they're casters too. All tanks have a unique damage rotation that makes you have to think a bit, even WAR, so I don't really know why a healer should be kept like this.

snip

Auto attacks becoming unpredictable would be a nice surprise, but the mechanics of every fight will still be following a strict schedule, so the abundance of oGCDS we have will still be overkill, at best slightly less overkill than what we have now.

My problem with unpredictable damage is that this design can only apply to future fights. If we adjust the next endgame fights to better fit healer kit design today, it'll still leave the entirety of ShB and half of EW to be snoozefests. I think it's more feasible that, instead of adjusting fight design to current healer design, we adjust healer design to current fight design. And even then, I think that a healer with a fleshed-out DPS rotation and less oGCDs will play far more engaging than current healers in an unpredictable boss fight.

[Renathras]

quoting

My thing is we shouldn't have a ton of buttons that do EXACTLY the same thing. WHM is the simplest example. SB Lilies were glorified Freecure, so we'll ignore them. ShB Lilies were originally a "when you need to cast Cure 2/Medica 1 but can't because you need to move" tool. That is, SEMI-emergency buttons that were up frequently, but not all the time. In a way, it was a kind of shared oGCD system. Like imagine if Whispering Dawn and Indominability shared a CD or something, so you have the option of using either but either you use locks out the other for their shared CD. (I'm not sure of a good EXAMPLE of this in healers; WAR has a single target and aoe attack that are oGCDs but share a CD). This way, they're limited resources AND a choice. I think that was the original design for Lilies, not the EW "damage neutral instant cast healing movement tool to get Misery into a burst window" that they've become today.

But regardless, the issue is, they do the exact same thing as a GCD heal, Medica 1 and Cure 2 respectively. To make matters worse, Tetra is yet another Cure 2. Assize WOULD be another Medica 1, but for the damage.

SCH/SGE have a similar issue with Lustrate/-cholethatIcan'tremember (Durochole?) that are just a quick heal roughly comparable to a Cure 2 with no CD. These two spells that exist, and in theory are useful, but are seldom used because of other tools that match or exceed them. Excog and Taurochole have CDs, but they're still up frequently, so many times you might use their "lesser" version, you use them instead. And in emergencies, Adlo/Eu Diagnosis are more powerful single target heals anyway. And Ixochole is basically a non-Eu Prognosis (SCH doesn't exactly have an equivalent, though)

The point I'm making is, these special abilities are cool when they aren't already covered by the GCD kit. If they are, they just replace the GCD tools. Aquaveil doesn't replace anything because WHM doesn't have a GCD that does the same thing. Tetra DOES replace something (Cure 2) because it does basically the exact same thing. Solace and Rapture replace Cure 2 and Medica 1 because, again, they do the exact same things. Imagine if Rapture was Medica 2 and Solace was Cure 2 + Regen. (and remove Tetra and make Medica 2 what Cure 3 is). Now you have Medica 2(Cure 3) for large stacked heals, Medica 1 for spread party heals, Rapture for spread heals with a Regen tick (so for big damage you use this into Medica 1/2[Cure 3] spam), and for single target, have Cure 1 and Cure 2 for spot healing while you have Solace for spot healing + extra (from the Regen tick) which also would go a long way to making WHM have a niche as a Regen healer.

EDIT (for space):

Now each button feels distinct, burning Lilies to generate Misery isn't so bad if people are overhealed because the HoT is at least useful on the Tank if nothing else, and each of those buttons has a place/use in the kit based on the situation at hand.

Another problem is when different healers have identical things. AST and WHM have an essentially identical GCD kit other than WHM having Cure 3 and Lilies TECHNICALLY being GCDs, just AST's cost less MP. Imagine if WHM's were stronger but more expensive OR faster casts. Just something to make them...not identical. Same with SCH and SGE who have a NEARLY 1-to-1 for their AF abilities.

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Summary is: I think it'd be nice of the oGCDs actually did more unique things and didn't step all over the toes of the GCD heals by being "the same, but better without a DPS loss", which makes them the go-to tools. Either oGCDs need to be distinct from GCD heals OR they need to have longer CDs so they aren't the go-to tools as much.

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Oh, and as for the "one healer sacrificed" - I guess my thinking is, I don't consider it a "sacrifice". Many people WANT that playstyle. We have 4 healers, so I feel they all SHOULD play differently. Like I tri-main WHM, SCH, and SGE, and their DPS kits are MORE OR LESS identical. I also dual secondary (since it's my secondary preferred role) WAR and GNB. I also HAVE PLD at 90 and did have it as my tank in SB. It's so refreshing that when I play WAR or GNB, they both feel distinct. WAR doesn't feel any more complex to my brain than the healer kits do (I'm not optimizing it nearly as much as I try on my healers just because I understand the healer kits better from more hours on them), but it's pretty straightforward and gets pretty good results from dumping all your CDs in burst and otherwise pooling stuff while occasionally hitting an upkeep buff. Honestly, I'd be happy if the upkeep buff were removed, but people already say it's "braindead" (no Job in this game is, no matter the hyperbole). GNB, on the other hand, is way more rigid, and painful on fights like Ex4 where she kind of likes to make you disengage/run away from her every 30 sec +/- a few, making keeping Goring Blade's CD rolling an absolute pain in the Chocobutt. But some people love THAT. PLD is also rigid, but also has a lot of weird nuance (where you leave an Atonement off to keep the rotation lined up, for example) and that weird cursed FoF -18 second opener business.

But the point is, they're all DIFFERENT. I've only dabbled in DRK ("leveling" it some as a side project but only at 35 at the moment), but apparently it plays vaguely like WAR with a lot more oGCDs (gated by MP, not CDs) during its burst phases, making it kind of straddle between WAR and GNB's playstyles.

Four Tanks. Four completely different rotations and playstyles. And there's still an "easy" one - again, I'd prefer it a SMIDGE easier (just because I hate "upkeep" things in general as a mechanic, be they self-buffs or DoTs) - but they still get to be different so players can pick a different one that appeals to them.

With healers, most of the "different that appeals to you" right now is just based on aesthetics and whether you like more mitigation in your toolkit or not, and for AST, if you like getting carpel tunnel syndrome. I don't think having one healer with the present damage kits (which by comparison are about even in structure to WoW's Holy Priest or Resto Shaman using Balance subspec instead of Feral) is a bad thing. I just think having all four have it is silly.

And I think it would go over better with the community and Dev team if one (probably WHM) was left with the damage kit of today. UNLESS we just dump the heck out of oGCDs and make all healing GCD again like HW/ARR with relatively low damage. If that was the case, a second DoT like back then wouldn't be horrible, I guess? But I think if one was left as it is today in terms of simple damage kit, it would be way more palatable for the community as a whole who DON'T come to the forums and actually like healers today.

[Mortex]

I'll gladly sacrifice those oGCD heals for a better dps toolkit. Healing requirements will never be demanding so long as every instance of damage is predictable.

I can agree with that. I rather have fun healer dps toolkits and less ogcd heals. Even in a world with almost no decent ogcds the situation would be the same you just swap glare for medica or cure 3. That’s interesting until you know when what comes in the fight and then again it becomes boring 1 button gameplay

[flowerfairy]

snip

I consider the base GCD heals to be unique from lilies because it eats up your MP instead of a 3-charge gauge. Of course, you don't want to be using base heals in the first place if you have lilies, but the secondary usage of lilies is movement. I think it's nice to be able to use base heals so you can save lilies incase a mechanic is coming up where you'll need to spend your lilies.

Tetra is an uninspiring ability to me because its only limitation is a 60s cooldown. Aquaveil is okay I guess, but it’s weak compared to Collective Unconsciousness. It’s definitely an ability that was only made because the devs didn’t know what else to do for WHM (or for any healers…) and didn’t want the only new thing to be Bell. I’d rather it be removed and Temperance drops down to 90s CD and its 10% damage reduction gets moved to Confession.

I agree that there needs to be a regen lily spell, but I’d rather it be its own spell. Something that’s weak in base potency but adds up to be a really strong regen. So you’ll have Rapture for burst healing and the new lily spell’s weak initial heal that adds up to overshadow Rapture. Solace doesn't need a regen effect.

[flowerfairy]

Oh, and as for the "one healer sacrificed" - I guess my thinking is, I don't consider it a "sacrifice". Many people WANT that playstyle.

I wonder, why exactly do people like this sort of gameplay? Because it’s simple? Maybe some sort of thinking like “I have less to worry about for damage, so I can focus on healing!”

No job in the game is excused from not having to deal damage. As such, I think that every job MUST have an engaging rotation, whether it’s simple or complex. Players must be taught the weight of doing something right or wrong.

What exactly does Glare and Dia teach players about dealing damage? What is there to pay attention to other than a 30s DoT? What does a new player get punished by if they keep overcapping the lily gauge? Nothing, nothing, nothing.

Take a look at this kit for WHM I made up:

• Stone III - 2s GCD. Charges bar by 10%. Every 3 casts, proc empowered Stone IV.
  
• Stone IV - 2s GCD. Charges bar by 5%. When proc’d, instant cast and charges bar by 10%.
  
• Water III - 1.5s GCD. Charges bar by 5%. In Water III mode, charge bar by 10%. 30% chance to proc Water IV mode.
  
• Water IV - 1.5s GCD. Charges bar by 5%. In Water IV mode, charge bar by 10%. 30% chance to proc Water III mode.
  
• Enlight - Expends bar, dealing max potency at 100%. Switches bar to opposite element.

The core rotation: (S3 > S3 > S3 > S4) x 3 > Enlight > W3 > (W3 or W4 depending on mode) x 9 > Enlight > repeat. Spells used in its proper phase deal bonus damage. Casting Stone spells in Water phase or vice versus drops the bar. Heals and Misery do not interrupt the S3 combo, and you automatically enter W3 mode in Water phase. Let's forget about Aero II and III for the moment.

This is a simple rotation with a predictable Stone phase and procs to pay attention to in Water phase. There is a GOOD way to do the rotation, a BAD way to do it, and a BEST way to do it. This is also why I want a regen lily spell to be separated from Solace and Rapture. You need to be able to choose the correct spell for the correct moment.

We can even add a reward to this:

Enlight - additional effect: When used at 80% Earth bar, grant 1 lily. When used at 80% Water bar, grant Freecure.

Now you’re rewarded for doing your rotation correctly. “But wait, what if you’re already full on lilies! You’ll have to spend one before pressing Enlight!” Yes, you will have to watch your lily gauge before casting Enlight. Or, you don’t have to. The damage you’ll gain is miniscule anyways. This is what optimization should be about.

This kit is easy to understand and yet forces you to pay attention to deal the most amount of damage. It STRESSES you, and that’s good. Games need to stress players. Platformers, RPGs, fighters, etc. FFXIV should be no different.

There’s nothing wrong with an easy class, but Glarespam is beyond easy. It fails to teach you what a caster should be about, and fails to challenge players.

[T-Owl]

I'll gladly sacrifice those oGCD heals for a better dps toolkit. Healing requirements will never be demanding so long as every instance of damage is predictable.

The issue is that even with better dps toolkits, removing healing ogcds, without replacing them with offensive ones, would just end up slowing the role further down.

Yeah, but isn't that ALREADY an improvement?

Healing would be more engaging if you were actually pressing more buttons, and that would be pressing more buttons.

Further, it would make things like efficiency and MP management actually important concepts. As it is, you blow oGCDs, everything is healed, you then spam Glare and keep Lucid on CD. There's no thought or nuance there.

Actively choosing between Medica or Cure 3, Cure 1 or Cure 2, Regen, or Cure 1/2, and when a situation DOES warrant using one of your more limited oGCD emergency tools already sounds more engaging. And it's not like things would necessarily be massively HARDER, per se (if that's a concern). Anything you heal with Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton or Afflatus Rapture can be directly substituted for Cure 2 and Medica 1, respectively, as they have the same potencies. It's not as direct, but a lot of the other healers have similar tool comparisons, like Lustrate/Excog to Physic/Adlo (ish) and so on. If the MP costs are somewhat reduced and healers actually have MP regen tools that are used for when MP is low and not on CD (imagine if Lucid had a weaker base potency but scaled higher the lower your MP was when you used it, rewarding waiting to use it until lower MP values instead of just keeping it rolling), then there'd still be no problems.

The fact is, healers press far more than 1/2 buttons NOW. Just the community has decided if they aren't GCDs, they don't count. So if healing was shifted to GCDs and oGCD heals were emergency/panic buttons (as they arguably should be), that would already fix the complaints...

...or reveal them as (some people) complaining because they want to DPS instead of heal and don't REALLY want to have to press more buttons if it means more healing buttons...

No. Every healer who even touches cure 1 would even under this system be subpar and it would basically only remove the single remaining challenge of healers, to map their ogcds correctly to keep their dps rolling, without adding anything else as long as it doesn't come with proper dps rotations. Not to forget that gcd heals in this game are even more boring than the single glare spam. That one at least looks pretty.

And to be hoenst, this hatred towards optimization focussed healers who want to contribute as much as possible to the party sounds like envy towards people who are just better at playing this game and who you know are contributing more towards the party and are more popular with randoms and statics alike than "I just want to heal and spread love and peace uWu" healers.