How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Gemina]

Well strictly from a game design standpoint, the assets associated with Miasma (as well as Miasma II and Miasma III) and Shadowflare were made and still exist for use. That's not to say new abilities shouldn't be made, but if we're trying to restore SCH's identity as a more offensive healer, then why not use the tools already at their disposal? Because you specifically are not a fan of them? And I don't meant that to sound mean or harsh, but there's not a real reason as to why those tools don't work on SCH. And SCH's identity also included those spells. SCH's identity as an offensive DoT healer was defined by its combination of those spells and its barriers. One was not superior to the other.

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?

I don't really feel like the sass is called for. I'm not trying to attack you, but regardless, that argument doesn't hold water. Reinstating their old offensive tools on principle does not mean that SCH's barriers are being taken away, or any other aspects of their kit. What are you afraid of losing? I'm sorry you didn't like old SCH, but in a scenario where someone rips a toy out of one child's toy and gives that toy to the other doesn't make that right from my perspective.

It's not sass. It's intent is as honest as when you asked me the same question. You even assume I didn't like old SCH. What makes you think that? Why do you deal in absolutes?

Do you think I don't like old SCH because I reject the proposition to revert it back to that? There is also the possibility that you think I dislike it because I am in favor with the direction that devs have gone with healing? Are these what draw your conclusions? You also think I'm afraid of losing something. Mentioning things like barriers being taken away when I haven't used anything like that in my arguments. Then the metaphor you choose to use to express your own grief is one of a child losing their toy.

[Supersnow845]

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?
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Well I mean the healer role from every statistic is dying if they aren’t trying to revive old SCH then I have no idea what they are doing because it was always one of the most beloved jobs in the game

[Gemina]

You said you wanted the gauge to build up to damage. Even if SCH's gauge is underwhelming...

I stopped here because it is right here you acknowledge my issue with the fairy gauge. Everything else you mentioned has no bearing on the matter.

SCH hasn't moved on lmfao, why do you think people ask for these things back? It's because they STILL fit into how Scholar plays today....

Again, I cut the quote off here because you lost sight of fact. Unless you can explain how abilities that are no longer usable in the game still fit. Because you want them to fit doesn't mean they'll fit. I used to fit in my high school jeans. I want to be able to fit in them. They still don't fit though.

Do you see what I'm getting at? People ask for these things not because they're in love with the concept of poison magic

This sir, is likely the most compelling argument I see made. It really is too bad it is almost always followed up with this...

but because the healers haven't moved on. They're continually limping along. They're the bare minimum requirement for a healer. That's all they are. They've had fun things taken away from them, and they've been given nothing in exchange. These jobs haven't moved on at all, and it's comical to suggest otherwise.

You immediately express your inability compromise, and anyone who has a view that differs from your own is "comical". You try to invalidate these views, yet expect understanding and sympathy in return? You could have just stopped with players liking the idea of poison magic. I can listen to that, and possibly even add some suggestions of my own. But nope. Your energy is instead devoted into silencing anything that disrupts to flow of negativity. You can't even fathom how a player can still have fun playing a healer.

I asked because when discussing things like "viability" it's important to know whether or not someone does the content that they're making these assumptions about. What keeps Scholar viable is not the fact that Miasma's potency was consolidated into Biolysis, it's Chain Stratagem and how the current meta favors rDPS and crits above all and jobs that benefit from it, like SCH. You could even remove Energy Drain (at least for last tier, it will be a while before we have the numbers for this tier) and SCH would still out DPS SGE due to how busted Chain is and how much rDPS it contributes to SCH - Energy Drain is only like a 5% variance on SCH's DPS and SCH is out DPSing SGE without it entirely.

But yes, you can get offended as much as you like to believe I have a "savage tier epeen" but I ask because I've played Scholar in savage last tier, and I played it in savage in Shadowbringers. I'm doing Black Mage this tier on my alt that has no healers at all because I don't want to contribute to any metrics they have for healers any longer, but I can show the proof that I've played Scholar at a Savage level this expansion. I asked because I was legitimately curious - is this tier different for Scholar on a level where regaining more of its lost DPS kit would render it unviable? Regardless, I never said it would be viable (it absolutely would, Chain keeps SCH meta in Savage regardless if it has 1 DoT or 5), but I get it, you make assumptions about content you don't do.

I assure you, no offense was taken here. I know you want me to be hurt, to feel rejected, and invalidated. That is why some players are so quick to go to savage logs, clears, and the like when they have nowhere else to go to with their arguments. When I say, "I don't need to run savage." What I am telling you is that I won't have my arguments about a job being fun, and talking about its lore be invalidated because I haven't cleared the most recent savage floor. Is that ok with you? Do you even have fun in savage? With all the drama going down with illegal addons, bans, players demanding transparency with dev testing, nerfs to the final boss, time dedication for statics, etc. etc. etc. I'm not exactly champing at the bit to hop into the content because of all the "fun" it seems to be full of.

[Gemina]

Well I mean the healer role from every statistic is dying if they aren’t trying to revive old SCH then I have no idea what they are doing because it was always one of the most beloved jobs in the game

Let me see the receipts.

Last I checked, the game is doing phenomenally well, and there are more players using healers now than ever. The devs have even quadrupled down at this point that they are not going back to the old healers. Seems to me there is just a loud minority of nostalgic healers.

[Supersnow845]

Let me see the receipts.

Last I checked, the game is doing phenomenally well, and there are more players using healers now than ever. The devs have even quadrupled down at this point that they are not going back to the old healers. Seems to me there is just a loud minority of nostalgic healers.

Healers currently have the lowest job satisfaction, besides WHM they have the lowest player number and they regularly rank amongst surveys for “needs changing the most” plus they are most in demand role for duty finder and it’s not even close

If the game got bigger but the amount of healers either didn’t get bigger or got bigger at a smaller rate then it’s evidence that the role isn’t doing well and healers haven’t had a positive survey in years

[Aword3213]

they are most in demand role for duty finder and it’s not even close

Depends on datacenter though. PF healer slot fills faster than DPS in JP datacenter since patch 5.2. I've tested it even before the release of datacenter traveling.

Healers also have slower queue time in Duty Finder. Rare instant pop-ups. Usually have to wait around 3-5 minutes even with Healer-in-Need.

However, healer number seems to drop a little in Abyssos. My fellow healer-main raiders who run with randoms a lot concluded that some healers got scared away by those spicy dots in this raid tier.

[ty_taurus]

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?

I don't really know who you've been talking to but the vast majority of SCH players miss its DoTs, its Shadowflare, its Virus, its Eye for an Eye, its faerie's identities. There are plenty of people who are willing to still play the job, but of those of whom the conversation came about in regards to old SCH, all of them from my experience unanimously agree that it was better when it had more DoTs. And then there's the forum discussions that have popped up multiple times about SCH and wanting its DoTs back. The only players I know to dislike DoTs are now you and like 2 other people on the forums. You seem to be in the minority on that one. One thing I want to send back to you though... You ask why is it only acceptable to take from the old SCH tools, I want to ask again what makes them not work with the current SCH? I don't think you've yet to explain how those old mechanics would disrupt their current gameplay.

It's not sass. It's intent is as honest as when you asked me the same question.

Perhaps this wasn't the intention, but the part of the post I saw as sass was you suggesting I look in the mirror, which comes across as very "have you looked in a mirror lately?"

You even assume I didn't like old SCH. What makes you think that? Why do you deal in absolutes? Do you think I don't like old SCH because I reject the proposition to revert it back to that? There is also the possibility that you think I dislike it because I am in favor with the direction that devs have gone with healing? Are these what draw your conclusions? You also think I'm afraid of losing something. Mentioning things like barriers being taken away when I haven't used anything like that in my arguments. Then the metaphor you choose to use to express your own grief is one of a child losing their toy.

I assume you don't like old SCH because you seem to have a distain for its core identity. I'm also not sure what about new SCH you like better because the only thing that's changed about SCH's gameplay has been the gutting of its DPS and the removal of Selene. SCH has gotten new buttons, yes, but those newer forms of utility did not have an impact on SCH's gameplay flow. They're not changing how you think about your GCD and what you do with it, like what those gutted DPS buttons did, or on a non-DPS related instance, Recitation and Deployment Tactics. Those are tools that actively changed how SCH thinks and handles its flow. Expedient is great, but it doesn't do that. That's not a bad thing. Not all tools are supposed to have a direct effect on gameplay, but SCH hasn't received anything that has developed its gameplay, but has had lots of things that did taken away from it.

[flowerfairy]

And right here is what I mean when I talk about being stuck in the past. It's the inability to compromise. Not only does SCH need more offensive buttons, they also can't be this, or that? It has to be your way or the highway. It can't be "cute"? Based off of what? Some warped idea that SCHs weave offensive spells that eat their opponents from the inside out? This doesn't sound like any SCH I am aware of. Are you really going to let the sound effect of the current Broil redefine the entire lore of this job? A ridiculously adorable fairy follows these guys wherever they go. Just in case you were not aware. SCH is a healer, and the majority of its kit revolves around supporting their allies. The job is more in line with its lore now than it has ever been.

It wasn’t only about the cute fairy; it was the combination of the learned arcanist that’s willing to do whatever dirty tricks it takes to secure victory and the playful spirit of the fairy that they call forth for their strength that was appealing to many players since the game was remade in 2.0. It isn’t a warped idea that SCH would go as far as using abilities that eat opponents from the inside out, it’s something that people would actually expect from the cold-hearted big brain strategists that are scholars.

I don’t think anyone here’s swatting away any ideas for SCH. Perhaps they get met with criticism if the idea is vague or doesn’t properly address the problem. What I do see is those that want the old poison spells back because they fit SCH’s whole shtick perfectly. Even SE’s PvP design team embraces that identity of SCH: A field tactician that utilizes poison to debilitize their enemies and shields to empower their allies.

The fact that a preference exists is case enough to show that identity and individuality are still present among the healers, and all other jobs/roles in the game. Arguments of homogenization end here. We can always boil things down to '1111', and filler rotations.

This is one thing I do disagree with, though. There is exponentially less uniqueness between WHM and SCH than there is between BLM and SMN. It has little to do with preference at this point. Healers are homogenized. This NEEDS to change. It’s simply not engaging, and there is nowhere else you can take this design. What you see as ‘filler rotation’ is the ONLY thing that can be both unique and healthy to current endgame design, where damage means everything.

Whatever “unique” identity remains of how healers use their heals matters little in endgame fights. All of it is just spamming your nuke, placing your DoT, and healing the raidwide. The kits that healers have are homogenized to a tee for sake of balance. GCD heals are avoided as much as possible by 3 of 4 healers because their excessive oGCDS take care of every little thing that happens in a fight.

[Sani2341]

Depends on datacenter though. PF healer slot fills faster than DPS in JP datacenter since patch 5.2. I've tested it even before the release of datacenter traveling.

Healers also have slower queue time in Duty Finder. Rare instant pop-ups. Usually have to wait around 3-5 minutes even with Healer-in-Need.

However, healer number seems to drop a little in Abyssos. My fellow healer-main raiders who run with randoms a lot concluded that some healers got scared away by those spicy dots in this raid tier.

Interesting. Because over here on light Healers usualy get insta queues even when it Displays Tank in need. Only time I actually had to wait for a queue for a few minutes when healing was for alliance raid Roulette with dps in need.

Similar story for PF ime. Usualy it's the Healer slots that fill last unless you run stuff at really off hours.

[Nizzi]

Again, I cut the quote off here because you lost sight of fact. Unless you can explain how abilities that are no longer usable in the game still fit. Because you want them to fit doesn't mean they'll fit. I used to fit in my high school jeans. I want to be able to fit in them. They still don't fit though.

No, they still fit in the game because Scholar has not changed, like I said. I literally explained how they still fit, Scholar has not changed in such a way that there is no room for its DoTs, unlike Summoner which has changed in such a way that there is no room for its DoTs. If Miasma was added back, it would replace a Broil cast - it would fit because all that has happened since losing SCH's DoTs is that Broil is casted more, nothing else. Do you understand, or do I need to write that a third time?

I assure you, no offense was taken here. I know you want me to be hurt, to feel rejected, and invalidated. That is why some players are so quick to go to savage logs, clears, and the like when they have nowhere else to go to with their arguments. When I say, "I don't need to run savage." What I am telling you is that I won't have my arguments about a job being fun, and talking about its lore be invalidated because I haven't cleared the most recent savage floor. Is that ok with you? Do you even have fun in savage? With all the drama going down with illegal addons, bans, players demanding transparency with dev testing, nerfs to the final boss, time dedication for statics, etc. etc. etc. I'm not exactly champing at the bit to hop into the content because of all the "fun" it seems to be full of.

Nah, you seem pretty upset about being asked a simple question. I didn't run to your logs or anything, I made no mention of your parses or anything of the sort - I asked you a question and you lashed out because anything that points out that you don't play Scholar at a level where some competence and understanding of how to properly play it is demanded clearly annoys you. It has nothing to do with your very weird assumption that I'm trying to hurt you when I'm telling you I haven't played Scholar this tier and I want to know where your opinions are coming from.

When making claims such as "SCH's old DoTs wouldn't fit into SCH now!" or "SCH has moved on!", it is of relevance to know whether you are actually doing the content these jobs and their kits are designed around (Savage). You aren't, so there's no reason to argue with you about things you have no idea about - which is how Scholar plays in a level where job viability actually matters. You can try to add as much irrelevant things that have nothing to do with anything I've said as you want, but I'm not going to bother responding to it because it isn't worth my time. All that's necessary to know is that your opinions on how Scholar's kit would function in high level content are worthless, because you aren't doing that content.