How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Nizzi]

Lorewise, skills like Miasma, Bane, and Shadowflare were part of ACN's kit; not SCH's. The link that exist for SCH to ACN is in name alone, and if they were to ever sever the ACN tie between SCH and SMN, the latter is the job that will likely retain its ACN roots. SCH's lore begins at 30, and their fairies are as much a part of it as the SCH themselves.

Absolutely incorrect. The Scholars of Nym were Arcanists to begin with, you can go to the Lodestone page for Scholar to read the blurb that says - "In an age long past, when mankind flourished under the radiance of arcane mastery, the island of Vylbrand was home to a city-state called Nym."
The link to ACN to SCH isn't in name alone, it's built into the lore and still is, regardless of you liking that or not. In fact, the original 1.0 lore for Arcanist was supposed to be centered around a plague - Las Vegas Fanfest 2014: “In Limsa Lominsa, the original Arcanist quest that was supposed to be released in 1.0 was actually about this disease spreading around La Noscea called the Green Rot. It would infect all of these people and they would die. To make money off of this, a bunch of merchants would try to smuggle in snake oils and tonics and things like that, and try to sell those to the people dying so they could get their money because they knew they were going to die anyway and were desperate."
Sound familiar? Seems almost like how Scholar's entire job questline and lore is dealing with plagues... so fitting for Miasma, Shadow Flare, Bane, etc to be apart of SCH's kit. Much more than Eos or Selene using attacks - something they have NEVER done.

If we're going to bring up the "lore" argument when it comes to gameplay, this is why wanting the fae gauge to have damage associated with it wouldn't work. "These learned men and women defended the freedom of their tiny nation with their unique command over spell-weaving faeries, utilizing the creatures' magicks to heal the wounded and bolster the strength of their allies." Outside of that, the faeries shouldn't have damage associated with them at all, because it throws Scholar's healing priority out of alignment when the faeries have always been Scholar's main source of totally free healing.

I much rather see SCH continue to move forward than revert back to a time where I am not even sure if it would still be viable in today's content.

Scholar has not moved forward at all, it has been a continual worsening of the job. For every one good thing Scholar gets, it gets two good things taken away from it. I have no idea why you would think that something like SB SCH wouldn't be viable in today's content - is that based off of your experiences healing in Savage on SCH this tier?

[Gemina]

Absolutely incorrect. The Scholars of Nym were Arcanists to begin with, you can go to the Lodestone page for Scholar to read the blurb that says - "In an age long past, when mankind flourished under the radiance of arcane mastery, the island of Vylbrand was home to a city-state called Nym."

Are you really concluding that SCH's were ACN's to begin with based on "Arcane Mastery"? Is this the depth of your knowledge of SCH lore? If so, these links might help:

What it means to be a Scholar - Uploader Synonic Scribe

Scholar, post 7th Umbral Calamity - Uploader Sync Weaver

War of the Magi, and the 5th Astral Era - Uploader Synonic Scribe

A little Arcanist lore - Uploader Wyrm Limion

A little Summoner lore - Uploader Synonic Scribe

Of course, I don't expect you to look at all of those. They do make for some good viewing if you have about an hour and fresh cup of coffee. I am posting these more as source material to show - a lot of it verbatim from the encyclopedia - that SCH roots really aren't defined by the ACN class, or even really by damage.

What is really important to note is that classes have their own lore. Some classes keep the ties stronger from class to job, but every class, and every job has their own lore. In the case of ACN, SMN, and SCH they all weave spells in a similar fashion, but they are each their own separate schools of arcane arts, or magic. How each of them came about to use a book/codex/grimoire as their arms can be traced to the southern continent, and it is likely from here these practices branched into their respective arts.

The link to ACN to SCH isn't in name alone, it's built into the lore and still is, regardless of you liking that or not. In fact, the original 1.0 lore for Arcanist was supposed to be centered around a plague - Las Vegas Fanfest 2014: “In Limsa Lominsa, the original Arcanist quest that was supposed to be released in 1.0 was actually about this disease spreading around La Noscea called the Green Rot. It would infect all of these people and they would die. To make money off of this, a bunch of merchants would try to smuggle in snake oils and tonics and things like that, and try to sell those to the people dying so they could get their money because they knew they were going to die anyway and were desperate."
Sound familiar? Seems almost like how Scholar's entire job questline and lore is dealing with plagues... so fitting for Miasma, Shadow Flare, Bane, etc to be apart of SCH's kit. Much more than Eos or Selene using attacks - something they have NEVER done.

The green plague you refer to, if the same as I recall, was foulplay at the hands of the mages of Mhach. It had absolutely nothing to do with how the SCHs of Nym practiced their arcane arts. The SCHs of Nym were mostly pacifists, and desired to stay out of the conflicts between the city states of Amdapor and Mhach. It was the latter's inevitable desire for the conquest of Nym and their resources that really forced their hands and aid of the mages of Amdapor.

The SCHs of Nym were practiced in battle tactics and strategy. Their strength lied not in their own combat prowess, but rather their ability to direct and command their fellow marauders into organized and optimized battle formations in combination of the deployment of their shields and curative magiks to assist and support their allies to easily overwhelm their opposition. This whole Bio+Misama into Bane, then slap on a ShadowFlare... that is ALL Arcanist.

If we're going to bring up the "lore" argument when it comes to gameplay, this is why wanting the fae gauge to have damage associated with it wouldn't work. "These learned men and women defended the freedom of their tiny nation with their unique command over spell-weaving faeries, utilizing the creatures' magicks to heal the wounded and bolster the strength of their allies." Outside of that, the faeries shouldn't have damage associated with them at all, because it throws Scholar's healing priority out of alignment when the faeries have always been Scholar's main source of totally free healing.

Again I will recommend the links to brush up on your knowledge. The SCH's fairy wasn't always sentient. To this day, no one really knows how this came to be. Because of this, we really don't know exactly what they are capable of. No we haven't seen them cause damage, but I also wasn't being strict that the damage had to come from Lily. Only that she be involved somehow with the animation.

Scholar has not moved forward at all, it has been a continual worsening of the job. For every one good thing Scholar gets, it gets two good things taken away from it. I have no idea why you would think that something like SB SCH wouldn't be viable in today's content - is that based off of your experiences healing in Savage on SCH this tier?

Sure it has. It's the players pining for 3.x SCH that have remained stagnant. The rest of the game, and SCH has moved on. Going on five years now. Holster your savage tier epeen bud. I merely said I was not sure if it would be viable, but just because you say it is, doesn't make it so. I don't need to run savage or ultimate to know that SCH's offensive kit was consolidated into Broil and War. I don't need to run savage to know that if SCHs old kit was just thrusted back into their repertoire, they would need some serious adjustments, to you know, make it viable for content.

[Nizzi]

No we haven't seen them cause damage, but I also wasn't being strict that the damage had to come from Lily. Only that she be involved somehow with the animation.

You said you wanted the gauge to build up to damage. Even if SCH's gauge is underwhelming, it is still for healing. The faerie doesn't need to have damage at all. Scholar is the only healer left with healing priority that isn't "lol just touch your GCDs last" and that would ruin it. Are you someone who likes Energy Drain? Then you should understand how healing priority plays into how Scholar interacts with Aetherflow. Are you someone who hates Energy Drain? Then you should see why turning a free healing source into damage would ruin it. Leave the faerie alone. Get rid of the gauge before giving them damage abilities. The opportunity cost of a lost Embrace alone is enough for me to hate it. (coincidentally part of the reason Fey Union and the gauge suck in general).

Sure it has. It's the players pining for 3.x SCH that have remained stagnant. The rest of the game, and SCH has moved on. Going on five years now.

SCH hasn't moved on lmfao, why do you think people ask for these things back? It's because they STILL fit into how Scholar plays today. Scholar of 3.x or 4.x is the Scholar of 6.x with faeries no longer on the petGCD and a gutted DPS kit. That's minorly reductive, but it's true. The job hasn't evolved. That's the problem. You know why you can't just slap Bio and Miasma back on SMN? Because they reworked the job entirely and there's no where for GCD DoTs to fit rotationally. SCH could have Miasma, Bane and Shadow Flare added back TOMORROW and it wouldn't break the flow of Scholar. You could add back Quickened Aetherflow and it wouldn't break the flow of Scholar, and actually with how much of a DPS gain Energy Drain is this expansion, Quickened Aetherflow would be a massive QoL for SCH that would make it way more fun to play and give it more to think about as Aetherflow would be a 45s resource instead of a 60s one that is always up for 2 minute burst windows to be dumped.

Do you see what I'm getting at? People ask for these things not because they're in love with the concept of poison magic, but because the healers haven't moved on. They're continually limping along. They're the bare minimum requirement for a healer. That's all they are. They've had fun things taken away from them, and they've been given nothing in exchange. These jobs haven't moved on at all, and it's comical to suggest otherwise.

Holster your savage tier epeen bud. I merely said I was not sure if it would be viable, but just because you say it is, doesn't make it so. I don't need to run savage or ultimate to know that SCH's offensive kit was consolidated into Broil and War. I don't need to run savage to know that if SCHs old kit was just thrusted back into their repertoire, they would need some serious adjustments, to you know, make it viable for content.

I asked because when discussing things like "viability" it's important to know whether or not someone does the content that they're making these assumptions about. What keeps Scholar viable is not the fact that Miasma's potency was consolidated into Biolysis, it's Chain Stratagem and how the current meta favors rDPS and crits above all and jobs that benefit from it, like SCH. You could even remove Energy Drain (at least for last tier, it will be a while before we have the numbers for this tier) and SCH would still out DPS SGE due to how busted Chain is and how much rDPS it contributes to SCH - Energy Drain is only like a 5% variance on SCH's DPS and SCH is out DPSing SGE without it entirely.

But yes, you can get offended as much as you like to believe I have a "savage tier epeen" but I ask because I've played Scholar in savage last tier, and I played it in savage in Shadowbringers. I'm doing Black Mage this tier on my alt that has no healers at all because I don't want to contribute to any metrics they have for healers any longer, but I can show the proof that I've played Scholar at a Savage level this expansion. I asked because I was legitimately curious - is this tier different for Scholar on a level where regaining more of its lost DPS kit would render it unviable? Regardless, I never said it would be viable (it absolutely would, Chain keeps SCH meta in Savage regardless if it has 1 DoT or 5), but I get it, you make assumptions about content you don't do.

[Gemina]

You said you wanted the gauge to build up to damage. Even if SCH's gauge is underwhelming...

I stopped here because it is right here you acknowledge my issue with the fairy gauge. Everything else you mentioned has no bearing on the matter.

SCH hasn't moved on lmfao, why do you think people ask for these things back? It's because they STILL fit into how Scholar plays today....

Again, I cut the quote off here because you lost sight of fact. Unless you can explain how abilities that are no longer usable in the game still fit. Because you want them to fit doesn't mean they'll fit. I used to fit in my high school jeans. I want to be able to fit in them. They still don't fit though.

Do you see what I'm getting at? People ask for these things not because they're in love with the concept of poison magic

This sir, is likely the most compelling argument I see made. It really is too bad it is almost always followed up with this...

but because the healers haven't moved on. They're continually limping along. They're the bare minimum requirement for a healer. That's all they are. They've had fun things taken away from them, and they've been given nothing in exchange. These jobs haven't moved on at all, and it's comical to suggest otherwise.

You immediately express your inability compromise, and anyone who has a view that differs from your own is "comical". You try to invalidate these views, yet expect understanding and sympathy in return? You could have just stopped with players liking the idea of poison magic. I can listen to that, and possibly even add some suggestions of my own. But nope. Your energy is instead devoted into silencing anything that disrupts to flow of negativity. You can't even fathom how a player can still have fun playing a healer.

I asked because when discussing things like "viability" it's important to know whether or not someone does the content that they're making these assumptions about. What keeps Scholar viable is not the fact that Miasma's potency was consolidated into Biolysis, it's Chain Stratagem and how the current meta favors rDPS and crits above all and jobs that benefit from it, like SCH. You could even remove Energy Drain (at least for last tier, it will be a while before we have the numbers for this tier) and SCH would still out DPS SGE due to how busted Chain is and how much rDPS it contributes to SCH - Energy Drain is only like a 5% variance on SCH's DPS and SCH is out DPSing SGE without it entirely.

But yes, you can get offended as much as you like to believe I have a "savage tier epeen" but I ask because I've played Scholar in savage last tier, and I played it in savage in Shadowbringers. I'm doing Black Mage this tier on my alt that has no healers at all because I don't want to contribute to any metrics they have for healers any longer, but I can show the proof that I've played Scholar at a Savage level this expansion. I asked because I was legitimately curious - is this tier different for Scholar on a level where regaining more of its lost DPS kit would render it unviable? Regardless, I never said it would be viable (it absolutely would, Chain keeps SCH meta in Savage regardless if it has 1 DoT or 5), but I get it, you make assumptions about content you don't do.

I assure you, no offense was taken here. I know you want me to be hurt, to feel rejected, and invalidated. That is why some players are so quick to go to savage logs, clears, and the like when they have nowhere else to go to with their arguments. When I say, "I don't need to run savage." What I am telling you is that I won't have my arguments about a job being fun, and talking about its lore be invalidated because I haven't cleared the most recent savage floor. Is that ok with you? Do you even have fun in savage? With all the drama going down with illegal addons, bans, players demanding transparency with dev testing, nerfs to the final boss, time dedication for statics, etc. etc. etc. I'm not exactly champing at the bit to hop into the content because of all the "fun" it seems to be full of.

[Nizzi]

Again, I cut the quote off here because you lost sight of fact. Unless you can explain how abilities that are no longer usable in the game still fit. Because you want them to fit doesn't mean they'll fit. I used to fit in my high school jeans. I want to be able to fit in them. They still don't fit though.

No, they still fit in the game because Scholar has not changed, like I said. I literally explained how they still fit, Scholar has not changed in such a way that there is no room for its DoTs, unlike Summoner which has changed in such a way that there is no room for its DoTs. If Miasma was added back, it would replace a Broil cast - it would fit because all that has happened since losing SCH's DoTs is that Broil is casted more, nothing else. Do you understand, or do I need to write that a third time?

I assure you, no offense was taken here. I know you want me to be hurt, to feel rejected, and invalidated. That is why some players are so quick to go to savage logs, clears, and the like when they have nowhere else to go to with their arguments. When I say, "I don't need to run savage." What I am telling you is that I won't have my arguments about a job being fun, and talking about its lore be invalidated because I haven't cleared the most recent savage floor. Is that ok with you? Do you even have fun in savage? With all the drama going down with illegal addons, bans, players demanding transparency with dev testing, nerfs to the final boss, time dedication for statics, etc. etc. etc. I'm not exactly champing at the bit to hop into the content because of all the "fun" it seems to be full of.

Nah, you seem pretty upset about being asked a simple question. I didn't run to your logs or anything, I made no mention of your parses or anything of the sort - I asked you a question and you lashed out because anything that points out that you don't play Scholar at a level where some competence and understanding of how to properly play it is demanded clearly annoys you. It has nothing to do with your very weird assumption that I'm trying to hurt you when I'm telling you I haven't played Scholar this tier and I want to know where your opinions are coming from.

When making claims such as "SCH's old DoTs wouldn't fit into SCH now!" or "SCH has moved on!", it is of relevance to know whether you are actually doing the content these jobs and their kits are designed around (Savage). You aren't, so there's no reason to argue with you about things you have no idea about - which is how Scholar plays in a level where job viability actually matters. You can try to add as much irrelevant things that have nothing to do with anything I've said as you want, but I'm not going to bother responding to it because it isn't worth my time. All that's necessary to know is that your opinions on how Scholar's kit would function in high level content are worthless, because you aren't doing that content.