How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Supersnow845]

I definitely like how WHM brings damage. I am also predicting they will get Misery II next expansion, which will incentivize lily usage even more. Along with that, I am hoping they update the lily gauge to allow the WHM to earn lilies, along with getting them passively. I think they could work it where if the WHM does not perform an action that earns them a lily within 30s, then they get one anyway. And if they do earn one, the 30s timer resets.

I believe every healer's gauge should award them via damage to the enemy like Misery. That being said, I have no idea why Macrocosmos is not tied to the AST seals. I need to play SGE more, but SCH is interesting in this regard. Their gauge needs to be looked at for sure because it is tied to a very niche ability; however, this niche ability has the potential to increase their DPS window. I understand that this is a very unfulfilling approach to contributing to dmg as a healer, but it is still very effective nonetheless. I also understand that interactive gauges like AST cards increase APM, and increasing/decreasing APM can really impact how a job plays and feels.

I need to play SGE more, but I honestly don't know what to give SCH. I know this echoes the devs and sounds crazy. Don't tar and feather me though, I just think it would feel weird at this point as SCH has more or less been the same since the beginning of ShB. I don't object to getting another dmg skill though. I just don't care to get back old skills like Bane and Miasma. I would rather get something new. Something very fitting for a SCH. Misery blooms into a flower and explodes. Macrocosmos rains comets. These are very fitting for WHM and AST respectively. I'm just not sure what. Something involving Lily. I know that.

I don’t know if I want to get into another lore argument but why don’t you want bane or miasma back for SCH, that is SCH’s lore, SCH isn’t a pretty job, it’s a tactician/field medic

This trend towards “fey mage” has no basis in SCH’s lore and makes it feel too much like a WHM

I would be happy just with shadowflare back for some interesting interaction with sacred soil

[Gemina]

I don’t know if I want to get into another lore argument but why don’t you want bane or miasma back for SCH, that is SCH’s lore, SCH isn’t a pretty job, it’s a tactician/field medic

This trend towards “fey mage” has no basis in SCH’s lore and makes it feel too much like a WHM

I would be happy just with shadowflare back for some interesting interaction with sacred soil

Lorewise, skills like Miasma, Bane, and Shadowflare were part of ACN's kit; not SCH's. The link that exist for SCH to ACN is in name alone, and if they were to ever sever the ACN tie between SCH and SMN, the latter is the job that will likely retain its ACN roots. SCH's lore begins at 30, and their fairies are as much a part of it as the SCH themselves.

Personally, I let go of 3.x SCH a long time ago. I was never really all that attached to it to begin with, but I was one of very few SCHs who were in favor of the changes that came with ShB, and the direction they chose to go with healing. I much rather see SCH continue to move forward than revert back to a time where I am not even sure if it would still be viable in today's content.

[ty_taurus]

Lorewise, skills like Miasma, Bane, and Shadowflare were part of ACN's kit; not SCH's. The link that exist for SCH to ACN is in name alone, and if they were to ever sever the ACN tie between SCH and SMN, the latter is the job that will likely retain its ACN roots. SCH's lore begins at 30, and their fairies are as much a part of it as the SCH themselves.

Personally, I let go of 3.x SCH a long time ago. I was never really all that attached to it to begin with, but I was one of very few SCHs who were in favor of the changes that came with ShB, and the direction they chose to go with healing. I much rather see SCH continue to move forward than revert back to a time where I am not even sure if it would still be viable in today's content.

Returning Miasma and Shadowflare would absolutely still be viable in today's content. There's no reason why additional buttons do not work on a healer. If anything the issue is the amount of buttons SCH has to deal with, but that has more to do with them being more bloated than they need to be. SCH kind of needs a rework to clear up its focus cause it's kinda all over the place. Even Yoshida blatantly stated they have no idea where to go with SCH moving forward.

SCH began its identity as a healer that focused on DoT management and enfeebling enemies with debuffs that made them weaker with tools like Virus and Eye for an Eye and this was the core aspect of SCH's identity up until ShB. That's a playstyle many people enjoyed, myself included, and now it's gone and we're not allowed to play it. I think that's something that should've been respected, and if it's not a playstyle you enjoyed, then it probably wasn't the best job for you. It would be nice if each healer had their own unique styles, that way if one healer didn't appeal to you, there's a chance another might. And that's also why I hope we continue to see new healers in the future, even if they're released slowly. But that does of course imply that healers gain the freedom to have unique playstyles apart from one another.

[Gemina]

Returning Miasma and Shadowflare would absolutely still be viable in today's content. There's no reason why additional buttons do not work on a healer. If anything the issue is the amount of buttons SCH has to deal with, but that has more to do with them being more bloated than they need to be. SCH kind of needs a rework to clear up its focus cause it's kinda all over the place. Even Yoshida blatantly stated they have no idea where to go with SCH moving forward.

Ok, for the sake of argument let's just say I agree with you. Why do these abilities have to be Miasma and Shadowflare? Why can't SCH get entirely new offensive skills?

SCH began its identity as a healer that focused on DoT management and enfeebling enemies with debuffs that made them weaker with tools like Virus and Eye for an Eye and this was the core aspect of SCH's identity up until ShB. That's a playstyle many people enjoyed, myself included, and now it's gone and we're not allowed to play it.

Again, this is ACN. SCHs identity revolves around shields, curative magic, and being proactive strategists assisting the melee and other more offensive members of the brigade.

I think that's something that should've been respected, and if it's not a playstyle you enjoyed, then it probably wasn't the best job for you.

If this is how you feel, then perhaps take these words to the mirror if you are currently dissatisfied with the current state of SCH and the healers. I think that's pretty fair, wouldn't you?

It would be nice if each healer had their own unique styles, that way if one healer didn't appeal to you, there's a chance another might. And that's also why I hope we continue to see new healers in the future, even if they're released slowly. But that does of course imply that healers gain the freedom to have unique playstyles apart from one another.

It's kind of already like that. Healers haven't been stripped entirely of their individuality, and I indeed do have preferences of which healer I take into which content. I seriously doubt I am alone on this regard. Perhaps here on the forums I am, but in-game, not even close.

[Supersnow845]

It's kind of already like that. Healers haven't been stripped entirely of their individuality, and I indeed do have preferences of which healer I take into which content. I seriously doubt I am alone on this regard. Perhaps here on the forums I am, but in-game, not even close.

People seem to misunderstand this point in particular when talking about homogenisation, it’s not the idea that since you have medica 2 and I have succor and they don’t do exactly the same thing that means the jobs are sufficiently different it’s the fact that no matter which healer you pick you will functionally be doing the same thing, spam 111111, maybe weave a heal after the raidwide it all feels exactly the same, same as how basically every DPS except BLM basically amounts to “boring filler rotation then dump everything in the burst

And on the subject of SCH’s skills, it doesn’t have to bake or miasma but it also certainly shouldn’t be something cutesy like “fey beam” broil is literally cooking your opponent alive from the inside, bane and miasma are just good examples because literally nobody likes new SCH better than old SCH

[Gemina]

People seem to misunderstand this point in particular when talking about homogenisation, it’s not the idea that since you have medica 2 and I have succor and they don’t do exactly the same thing that means the jobs are sufficiently different it’s the fact that no matter which healer you pick you will functionally be doing the same thing, spam 111111, maybe weave a heal after the raidwide it all feels exactly the same, same as how basically every DPS except BLM basically amounts to “boring filler rotation then dump everything in the burst

The fact that a preference exists is case enough to show that identity and individuality are still present among the healers, and all other jobs/roles in the game. Arguments of homogenization end here. We can always boil things down to '1111', and filler rotations. Even back in HW, it could still be reduced down to this. This isn't some kind of new phenomena that came with ShB. I get the desire for a more intricate and sophisticated encounter design that allows for jobs even within a given role to truly be their own thing, but that just isn't the direction this dev team has chosen to go. That kind of design paves the way towards forced comps, and they have been very clear that they want to avoid this. But I digress. Your original question for me was why I oppose the return of skills like Miasma.

And on the subject of SCH’s skills, it doesn’t have to bake or miasma but it also certainly shouldn’t be something cutesy like “fey beam” broil is literally cooking your opponent alive from the inside, bane and miasma are just good examples because literally nobody likes new SCH better than old SCH

And right here is what I mean when I talk about being stuck in the past. It's the inability to compromise. Not only does SCH need more offensive buttons, they also can't be this, or that? It has to be your way or the highway. It can't be "cute"? Based off of what? Some warped idea that SCHs weave offensive spells that eat their opponents from the inside out? This doesn't sound like any SCH I am aware of. Are you really going to let the sound effect of the current Broil redefine the entire lore of this job? A ridiculously adorable fairy follows these guys wherever they go. Just in case you were not aware. SCH is a healer, and the majority of its kit revolves around supporting their allies. The job is more in line with its lore now than it has ever been.

And I like it. I was a SCH back when I joined in 2015, and I am a SCH now. I am completely aware that I don't speak for the entire healer community, but I am a paid subscriber and each of us has a voice. I'll be damned if my viewpoints are moot because I don't conform to the consensus on the forums that healing in FFXIV is atrocious.

[flowerfairy]

And right here is what I mean when I talk about being stuck in the past. It's the inability to compromise. Not only does SCH need more offensive buttons, they also can't be this, or that? It has to be your way or the highway. It can't be "cute"? Based off of what? Some warped idea that SCHs weave offensive spells that eat their opponents from the inside out? This doesn't sound like any SCH I am aware of. Are you really going to let the sound effect of the current Broil redefine the entire lore of this job? A ridiculously adorable fairy follows these guys wherever they go. Just in case you were not aware. SCH is a healer, and the majority of its kit revolves around supporting their allies. The job is more in line with its lore now than it has ever been.

It wasn’t only about the cute fairy; it was the combination of the learned arcanist that’s willing to do whatever dirty tricks it takes to secure victory and the playful spirit of the fairy that they call forth for their strength that was appealing to many players since the game was remade in 2.0. It isn’t a warped idea that SCH would go as far as using abilities that eat opponents from the inside out, it’s something that people would actually expect from the cold-hearted big brain strategists that are scholars.

I don’t think anyone here’s swatting away any ideas for SCH. Perhaps they get met with criticism if the idea is vague or doesn’t properly address the problem. What I do see is those that want the old poison spells back because they fit SCH’s whole shtick perfectly. Even SE’s PvP design team embraces that identity of SCH: A field tactician that utilizes poison to debilitize their enemies and shields to empower their allies.

The fact that a preference exists is case enough to show that identity and individuality are still present among the healers, and all other jobs/roles in the game. Arguments of homogenization end here. We can always boil things down to '1111', and filler rotations.

This is one thing I do disagree with, though. There is exponentially less uniqueness between WHM and SCH than there is between BLM and SMN. It has little to do with preference at this point. Healers are homogenized. This NEEDS to change. It’s simply not engaging, and there is nowhere else you can take this design. What you see as ‘filler rotation’ is the ONLY thing that can be both unique and healthy to current endgame design, where damage means everything.

Whatever “unique” identity remains of how healers use their heals matters little in endgame fights. All of it is just spamming your nuke, placing your DoT, and healing the raidwide. The kits that healers have are homogenized to a tee for sake of balance. GCD heals are avoided as much as possible by 3 of 4 healers because their excessive oGCDS take care of every little thing that happens in a fight.

[ty_taurus]

Ok, for the sake of argument let's just say I agree with you. Why do these abilities have to be Miasma and Shadowflare? Why can't SCH get entirely new offensive skills?

Again, this is ACN. SCHs identity revolves around shields, curative magic, and being proactive strategists assisting the melee and other more offensive members of the brigade.

Well strictly from a game design standpoint, the assets associated with Miasma (as well as Miasma II and Miasma III) and Shadowflare were made and still exist for use. That's not to say new abilities shouldn't be made, but if we're trying to restore SCH's identity as a more offensive healer, then why not use the tools already at their disposal? Because you specifically are not a fan of them? And I don't meant that to sound mean or harsh, but there's not a real reason as to why those tools don't work on SCH. And SCH's identity also included those spells. SCH's identity as an offensive DoT healer was defined by its combination of those spells and its barriers. One was not superior to the other.

If this is how you feel, then perhaps take these words to the mirror if you are currently dissatisfied with the current state of SCH and the healers. I think that's pretty fair, wouldn't you?


It's kind of already like that. Healers haven't been stripped entirely of their individuality, and I indeed do have preferences of which healer I take into which content. I seriously doubt I am alone on this regard. Perhaps here on the forums I am, but in-game, not even close.

I don't really feel like the sass is called for. I'm not trying to attack you, but regardless, that argument doesn't hold water. Reinstating their old offensive tools on principle does not mean that SCH's barriers are being taken away, or any other aspects of their kit. What are you afraid of losing? I'm sorry you didn't like old SCH, but in a scenario where someone rips a toy out of one child's toy and gives that toy to the other doesn't make that right from my perspective.

[Gemina]

Well strictly from a game design standpoint, the assets associated with Miasma (as well as Miasma II and Miasma III) and Shadowflare were made and still exist for use. That's not to say new abilities shouldn't be made, but if we're trying to restore SCH's identity as a more offensive healer, then why not use the tools already at their disposal? Because you specifically are not a fan of them? And I don't meant that to sound mean or harsh, but there's not a real reason as to why those tools don't work on SCH. And SCH's identity also included those spells. SCH's identity as an offensive DoT healer was defined by its combination of those spells and its barriers. One was not superior to the other.

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?

I don't really feel like the sass is called for. I'm not trying to attack you, but regardless, that argument doesn't hold water. Reinstating their old offensive tools on principle does not mean that SCH's barriers are being taken away, or any other aspects of their kit. What are you afraid of losing? I'm sorry you didn't like old SCH, but in a scenario where someone rips a toy out of one child's toy and gives that toy to the other doesn't make that right from my perspective.

It's not sass. It's intent is as honest as when you asked me the same question. You even assume I didn't like old SCH. What makes you think that? Why do you deal in absolutes?

Do you think I don't like old SCH because I reject the proposition to revert it back to that? There is also the possibility that you think I dislike it because I am in favor with the direction that devs have gone with healing? Are these what draw your conclusions? You also think I'm afraid of losing something. Mentioning things like barriers being taken away when I haven't used anything like that in my arguments. Then the metaphor you choose to use to express your own grief is one of a child losing their toy.

[Supersnow845]

It has nothing to do with whether I am fan of those skills or not. No one is trying to restore SCHs identity as a more offensive healer. There are only those who have never been able to move past the direction the devs chose to go. That version of SCH is gone and it does not matter if this fact is to the chagrin, or the delight of any given player. This does not mean that SCH cannot be given more offensive tools, and again I ask why is the only acceptable implementation of this have to come in the form of old SCH?
.

Well I mean the healer role from every statistic is dying if they aren’t trying to revive old SCH then I have no idea what they are doing because it was always one of the most beloved jobs in the game