How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[ty_taurus]

I'd agree and disagree with this. Disagree because way back in ARR healer DPS wasn't as big of a thing. Going into Cleric Stance legit felt like a risk-reward, and particularly more so for SCH where you could apply your DoTs, have lustrate for emergencies, and then take stance off if needed. I do agree that it would not work nowadays with the way the game has gone, and it would not be an option, only a nuance.

The biggest issue with old Cleric Stance in my mind is that you're obligated to engage with it. If you don't feel comfortable taking that risk, you were punished with virtually 0 ability to contribute DPS, but then if you do engage and you make any mistake in your assessment, then suddenly you can't even perform your most basic role function (outside of a few exceptions like Benediction).

I think simply giving you a more valuable DPS buff that has a time limit but does not tank your healing would be a far more balanced and forgiving way to address that concept. Lets say you have charges of this buff and it lasts X seconds. If you misjudge when the best time to use it is, and need to start healing, you're losing uptime during that buff window and is a consequence, but it's not this grand ultimatum where you either do damage and can't heal at all or you do nothing and prepare for healing.

[AmiableApkallu]

To the original post:

The reason WHM has Lily heals feeding into Lily damage is because those Lily heals are GCDs. You can either Lily heal for the GCD, or you can Glare for the GCD, but not both.

None of the other healers is faced with that choice with their resources. Having their resources feed into damage is essentially buffing their damage, and that would need to be balanced, somehow.

[Sighearth]

To the original post:

The reason WHM has Lily heals feeding into Lily damage is because those Lily heals are GCDs. You can either Lily heal for the GCD, or you can Glare for the GCD, but not both.

None of the other healers is faced with that choice with their resources. Having their resources feed into damage is essentially buffing their damage, and that would need to be balanced, somehow.

Since the last patch Misery is dps neutral (have the potency of 4 glares) you don't need to choose you can lily away. Yes that would be a dps increase for healers so the numbers would need to be balanced

[Sani2341]

None of the other healers is faced with that choice with their resources. Having their resources feed into damage is essentially buffing their damage, and that would need to be balanced, somehow.

Only reason SGE doesn't have that choice is because Toxikon is not worth the GCD spent on the shield to gain addersting.
Which, tbh, was basicly the same place WHM was in for the longest time, but without being forced to use those GCDs to Heal anyways.

Which leads me to my counter idea for SGE:

Make Toxikon worth the heal investment. And immediatly you would increase the variety in gameplay for the job and thus engagement, bc now you'd be incentivized to have a GCD shield on the tank whenever it can break, at least up till you get full addersting stacks for the next burst.

[flowerfairy]

For SCH: Just make SCH get a proc of Energy Drain ready (that makes your next ED consume no AF stack) when you spend AF stacks in healing. Every time you use Dissipation (while the buff is active) you can use 1 strong gcd named meltdown or something (dissipation button becomes meltdown for the duration) so you can actually have a burst phase (which is your dissipation) you can pool 3 EDs from AF + 3 EDs from dissipation + that strong gcd would feel good.

I think tying your burst damage spell to the ability that locks you out of your fairy doesn't feel great when you need that healing for whatever comes next. You'll might have to keep your AF or use a GCD which is already a DPS loss for SCH. IMO all healers need a rework no matter what if we're going to continue to have this style of endgame fights. The Energy Drain Ready proc sounds okay but it isn't enough to make up for the 1111111 gameplay.

[TheDustyOne]

While a decent effort, I feel like these would only occasionally break up the monotony every couple of minutes or so. I'd still rather see full reworks to healer dps kits, with every healer having their own mini rotation unique to them. I'd also like to see the main healing spells get more use and interaction with their respective kits rather than as something to avoid 90% of the time in favour of ogcd heals.

As a quick example, Scholar could go back to its DoT styled gameplay where it has to maintain multiple DoTs on different timers, and we could borrow Fester from SMN, make it a 30s cooldown with 2 charges, and have the potency be equal to a broil cast if all its DoTs are up. Good use of Adloquium (like making sure the shield breaks) would give back one charge of Fester, which would make Adlo dps neutral in theory. Something like this I think would be more interesting than having them all be Nuke + DoT with 4 very similar healing spells in each kit.

I'm sure a lot of people here would prefer something else, and the example I gave isn't the most thought out, but I'll take anything over nuke spam with ogcd heals at this point.

[Allegor]

Honestly, I can see the intend of the toxicon mechanic. As someone who plays only on a casual level, I'd gladly sacrifice a gcd if it meant I can shield a non-tank party member from getting hit (which happens A LOT in dungeons and alliance raids), since that's what shields are for, but I can also see how it's essentially worthless for the raiding environment.

While I'm no fan of homogenization in general, and Twelve know healers are the ones that need it the least, I think it'd make sense if Toxicon becomes Sage's version of Misery - get adderstings as a reward for shielding, get 3 stacks and you get a big boom spell.

[Jonathan_Clover]

While I'm no fan of homogenization in general, and Twelve know healers are the ones that need it the least, I think it'd make sense if Toxicon becomes Sage's version of Misery - get adderstings as a reward for shielding, get 3 stacks and you get a big boom spell.

I'd love for them to do SOMETHING more with Toxicon/Addersting. I think the absolute bare minimum they should do right now(barring a rework) is either make Rhizomata grant one Sting, or double Toxicon II potency to 660 so that it's not a DPS loss to use.

Yeah, it'd be a little TOO similar to Lilies/Misery, and while I also hate homogenization, I feel like it's the least they can do right now for it.

[ty_taurus]

While I'm no fan of homogenization in general, and Twelve know healers are the ones that need it the least, I think it'd make sense if Toxicon becomes Sage's version of Misery - get adderstings as a reward for shielding, get 3 stacks and you get a big boom spell.

I don’t think that’s necessary. The biggest issue with making Toxikon DPS neutral given the current kit is how much unlimited free healing SGE gets. Instead, we should rethink how SGE regularly obtains Addersting and find ways to control that. Some ideas I had for example:

Replace Rhizomata with a GCD DPS action that deals as much damage as your current Dosis tier, and generates 1 Addersgall and 1 Addersting. This would have a 20 second cooldown with 2 charges. This also replaces normal Addersgall generation.

Instead of Addersgall generating over time, the gauge now increases each time you trigger a Kardion effect by 2 out of 100. While your gauge is 50 or greater, your next E. Diagnosis or E. Prognosis will grant 1 Addersting. This means you’d effectively get 1 free barrier heal in 62.5 seconds worth of DPS GCDs which feels like an appropriate “cooldown” for a DPS refunded barrier heal in my opinion.

If we also increase Toxikon’s potency to twice that of your current Dosis potency (or in my idea, keep it at identical potency but combo into an OGCD thats also the same potency and requires Toxikon be cast to use each time) then these changes would add a bit more engagement to SGE’s rotation. Manual control of Addersgall/Sting generation helps break up Dosis spam, combos into Toxikon, and now you have a more balanced way to throw out occasional barriers and further break pup Dosis spam.

I’d argue this still isn’t enough to fully satiate the SGE fantasy, but it would be step forward and actually make me want to go back to healing.

[Gemina]

I definitely like how WHM brings damage. I am also predicting they will get Misery II next expansion, which will incentivize lily usage even more. Along with that, I am hoping they update the lily gauge to allow the WHM to earn lilies, along with getting them passively. I think they could work it where if the WHM does not perform an action that earns them a lily within 30s, then they get one anyway. And if they do earn one, the 30s timer resets.

I believe every healer's gauge should award them via damage to the enemy like Misery. That being said, I have no idea why Macrocosmos is not tied to the AST seals. I need to play SGE more, but SCH is interesting in this regard. Their gauge needs to be looked at for sure because it is tied to a very niche ability; however, this niche ability has the potential to increase their DPS window. I understand that this is a very unfulfilling approach to contributing to dmg as a healer, but it is still very effective nonetheless. I also understand that interactive gauges like AST cards increase APM, and increasing/decreasing APM can really impact how a job plays and feels.

I need to play SGE more, but I honestly don't know what to give SCH. I know this echoes the devs and sounds crazy. Don't tar and feather me though, I just think it would feel weird at this point as SCH has more or less been the same since the beginning of ShB. I don't object to getting another dmg skill though. I just don't care to get back old skills like Bane and Miasma. I would rather get something new. Something very fitting for a SCH. Misery blooms into a flower and explodes. Macrocosmos rains comets. These are very fitting for WHM and AST respectively. I'm just not sure what. Something involving Lily. I know that.