Thread: Patch 6.21 Job Adjustments Overview:

Ohhhh.... ok, that makes more sense then. I only ever kept pld leveled so I could throw away old tanking gear, so I haven't gotten around to it this xpac yet to notice those things.

Wow, I'm so glad gnb and drk are my main tanking jobs, then.

Atonement may end up being removed, Holy Spirit/Circle may become oGCDs in the same line as Edge/Flood, Requiescat may end up being merged with Fight or Flight, and all 3 Blades spells may become Weaponskills. I could see them reducing the cooldown on that merger of Fight or Flight and Requiescat to 20s, and make Confeitor a 1m oGCD that enables the Blades spell combo after being used. The burst window they'd vie for would be the Requiescat -> Goring Blade -> Royal Authority combo -> Confeitor -> Blades combo. That would be 7 GCDs and a single oGCD, fit into a 20s burst window. Holy Spirits would likely be used in between the GCDs, giving PLD a very powerful burst while not really removing anything but Atonement. This would also fix the Skill/Spell speed split, essentially fixing PLD without horribly destroying the job.[/QUOTE]

actualy i like this idea, PLD are DRK twins for me

Originally Posted by Mithron

It's too rare and even when you can use it, it never really "feels" good given how much it destroys your DPS. It needs to be better healing than Intervention, so Intervention's main purpose is damage reduction, while you use Clemancy for the healing instead. Throwing both on a DPS who just ate a vuln stack, or someone got raised, or someone taking a tank buster (or your self) would feel really good and thematically fit PLD well. I'm not a fan of skills that are only useful in hyper specific situations, but perhaps Criterion dungeons will give me a new perspective. Deep Dungeon did not.

It's also important to note that if PLDs were decent enough at providing heals, it would allow healers to DPS more thus giving PLD even more thematic utility.

No Interventions main purpose is a Small damage reduction and a HOT, use it on a drk who helps reduce even more damage from TBN, and the small amount of damage they did take can be sustained by your Paladin without wasting a Healer resources, It's hot being 250 for 4 ticks is = 1000, Clemency being a Heal that is shared with it's oath gauge makes no sense.

If you're not a fan of "Hyper specific" then I don't see any comments on cover, nor something like Shield bash, the fact is Clemency has a more clear use even more so then those two, It's a GCD healing ability that opens up a lot to the PLD while you don't want to use but should be used in a lot of situations, Including when healers are struggling, when your healer is on the floor in a dungeon (Comes up for me more then you know), Solo content, Likely new content Dugeon content, fates, ect. Clemency actually has a lot of use cases in down time and progression so No clemency isn't niche enough nor should it be removed, clemency should feel bad when your trying to optimise your Damage rotation like using a GCD heal as a healer should, doesn't mean it should be removed.

If you wanna recommend adding something like a targeted OGCD Heal on Paladin I'm all for that, but we need Understand putting it with intervention and holy shelltron makes it practically useless as they already act as a heal with mitigation.

Originally Posted by Rithy255

No Interventions main purpose is a Small damage reduction and a HOT, use it on a drk who helps reduce even more damage from TBN, and the small amount of damage they did take can be sustained by your Paladin without wasting a Healer resources, It's hot being 250 for 4 ticks is = 1000, Clemency being a Heal that is shared with it's oath gauge makes no sense.

If you're not a fan of "Hyper specific" then I don't see any comments on cover, nor something like Shield bash, the fact is Clemency has a more clear use even more so then those two, It's a GCD healing ability that opens up a lot to the PLD while you don't want to use but should be used in a lot of situations, Including when healers are struggling, when your healer is on the floor in a dungeon (Comes up for me more then you know), Solo content, Likely new content Dugeon content, fates, ect. Clemency actually has a lot of use cases in down time and progression so No clemency isn't niche enough nor should it be removed, clemency should feel bad when your trying to optimise your Damage rotation like using a GCD heal as a healer should, doesn't mean it should be removed.

If you wanna recommend adding something like a targeted OGCD Heal on Paladin I'm all for that, but we need Understand putting it with intervention and holy shelltron makes it practically useless as they already act as a heal with mitigation.

Then buff Clemancy to 1500 potency or remove Intervention/Holy Shelltron's regen. Whatever you gotta do to make Clemancy be the go-to Oath gauge heal while Intervention/Holy Shelltron be the damage reduction. I'd rather keep both the regen and have a bigger heal, just adding to PLD's utility. Constantly looking at my party members' health bars for opportunities to heal them sounds like a whole lot of fun that would definitely make PLD useful and unique, far more so than what Intervention currently does. Even consider lowering one or both to 25 cost instead of 50.

I agree Shield Bash and Cover need looking at too, but Clemancy is a much quicker and easier fix. We already have Vercure for what Clemancy does, just go play RDM for that instead since it's actually more usable and less sacrifice in the same situations you would use Clemancy. I want Clemancy to be Oath Gauge OGCD and using it regularly to heal my party and it be good and useful. Make that happen, whatever it takes.

All tanks are so homogenized that it doesn't even matter who does more or less at this point. If you wanna talk utility, they all have:
a raidwide mit (except PLD w/ 2)
a 25s spammable def cd (TBN/HoC/Bloodwhetting/HSheltron)
a def cd that can be placed on a party member (TBN/HoC/Intervention/Nascent)

What should matter is that they all should be ~1% damage variance among each other.

Originally Posted by Mithron

Then buff Clemancy to 1500 potency or remove Intervention/Holy Shelltron's regen. Whatever you gotta do to make Clemancy be the go-to Oath gauge heal while Intervention/Holy Shelltron be the damage reduction. I'd rather keep both the regen and have a bigger heal, just adding to PLD's utility. Constantly looking at my party members' health bars for opportunities to heal them sounds like a whole lot of fun that would definitely make PLD useful and unique, far more so than what Intervention currently does. Even consider lowering one or both to 25 cost instead of 50.

I agree Shield Bash and Cover need looking at too, but Clemancy is a much quicker and easier fix. We already have Vercure for what Clemancy does, just go play RDM for that instead since it's actually more usable and less sacrifice in the same situations you would use Clemancy. I want Clemancy to be Oath Gauge OGCD and using it regularly to heal my party and it be good and useful. Make that happen, whatever it takes.

We don't need Clemency on oath gauge nor do we need to nerf Holy shelltron it's already a bad ability compared to over tank cds, Maybe you need to use intervention more, epically because i use it a lot to help when im capped on 100 oath, I don't get why your trying to remove current clemency to replace it with something thats a tied to oath Gauge. Even If you wanted PLD to have a OGCD heal tied to oath for some reason removing something like clemency instead of Shield Bash? PLD is arguably in need of changes to some of it's kit, but we don't have to remove a ability like clemency, I don't think nerfing intervention to put PLDS heal on oath gauge will make it more unique.

I don't disagree a OCD heal isn't a bad thing that could be added onto PLD, but not at the cost of something like clemency, it also shouldn't be tied to your oath, If Gunbreaker can have a regen, warrior can have a massive self heal and dark knight can have Oblation, I don't see why Paladin can't have something like a targetable OGCD heal (On 60 Secs with 2 stacks) But also keep it's ability clemency, as it is It doesn't need changing, Neither does it need to be slapped on Oath Gauge, That's not adding to it's "utility" (which plds utility isn't even that good and it suffers from bad defensives compared to other tanks) It's just taking away a ability likely taking away the regen aspect of intervention and replacing it with a heal that takes up the same resource... Yeah I don't think that's a good idea sorry, I understand wanting utility on Paladin but do we really have to remove clemency for it?

Yeah I'll just go play red mage for vercure?
I enjoy Paladin, Just because I elike how clemency works that has it's moments where it shines, Paladins always been a good "solo" tank, a good "run saver" tank so removing clemency just makes the class a lot less fun having less options, even if I don't use it a lot.

Because I want to use Clemancy to heal, not Intervention. Intervention's heal isn't that great, 1k total potency over what, 12 seconds? A 1k instant heal is generally better in most Extreme/Savage+ circumstances, and if you could do it instantly for free then that's a lot more value. Sure the Intervention has the same total heal and comes with damage reduction, but I want to press Clemancy. I do use Intervention as much as I can and honestly was looking forward to using my Oath gauge to heal others the most in EW. Now I want to do it better in current relevant content.

The problem is that Clemancy is currently not fun nor an option, so by making it an OGCD that fixes both.

Originally Posted by Mithron

Because I want to use Clemancy to heal, not Intervention. Intervention's heal isn't that great, 1k total potency over what, 12 seconds? A 1k instant heal is generally better in most Extreme/Savage+ circumstances, and if you could do it instantly for free then that's a lot more value. Sure the Intervention has the same total heal and comes with damage reduction, but I want to press Clemancy. I do use Intervention as much as I can and honestly was looking forward to using my Oath gauge to heal others the most in EW. Now I want to do it better in current relevant content.

The problem is that Clemancy is currently not fun nor an option, so by making it an OGCD that fixes both.

Intervention is a heal and you can use it as one? Sure it's also a mitigation tool, but 9/10 times im gonna use Intervention for both especially with the a lot damage over time, Your point loses me 1K is pretty big considering that's how much clemency heals you for, sure its over time? but a lot of the effects gives you dots in the current raid tier?
We don't need Oath to have clemency, I want Paladin to have strong utility like I said I believe Paladin should get a strong OCD, targetable heal similar to how warrior gets a self heal, DRK gets oblation and gunbreaker gets a regen, We could give Paladin a strong OGCD heal

Clemency is fine it's a option, might not be ideal for savage, but it being there to help even prolong a fight and see more mechs even in savage is a good use in progression. This is ignoring the countless non savage uses it has, let Paladin keep it instead of removing it Theirs other abilities you can remove before removing clemency.

Heres Three things you can remove before clemency, if Paladin has too much "bloat" if we add more stuff.
1. Shield Bash, It's rarely ever used way more niche then clemency
2. Intervention/Holy shelltron can be merged, right now both serve the same purpose, keep the intervention animation when targeting someone else, change it so instead of blocks are 20% Mitgation or something lol.
3. Cover, I rather this just be buffed but I still rather cover be removed before clemency.

All 3 can make more room for extra Paladin utility/defensives before we have to get rid of one of Paladins more unique Abilities that is actually good in a lot of situations.

I'm not looking to remove PLD bloat, or to address Shield Bash or Cover. I just want Clemancy to be an OGCD so I can actually press it. That's it. Make it like Equilibrium so it's a big heal that we can throw on someone that also gives regen. Whatever it takes. Make it an OGCD and make it good. Don't care about anything else said.

Originally Posted by Mithron

I'm not looking to remove PLD bloat, or to address Shield Bash or Cover. I just want Clemancy to be an OGCD so I can actually press it. That's it. Make it like Equilibrium so it's a big heal that we can throw on someone that also gives regen. Whatever it takes. Make it an OGCD and make it good. Don't care about anything else said.

Ok so lets make clemency a OGCD so you can press it, And then we can give paladin Clemency 2 as a GCD

I'm pretty much saying lets not change clemency as it is but also implement a way for paladin to heal OGCD wise, wouldn't that be best of both worlds? I mentioned removing things such as shield bash because it has less use cases then current clemency, we can generally keep clemency but still give PLD a OGCD.

It's not also busted on PLD to have a bit more utility or a raw heal like warrior considering how much the tanks lacking defensively right now.