Thread: Patch 6.21 Job Adjustments Overview:

Originally Posted by Mithron

It's too rare and even when you can use it, it never really "feels" good given how much it destroys your DPS. It needs to be better healing than Intervention, so Intervention's main purpose is damage reduction, while you use Clemancy for the healing instead. Throwing both on a DPS who just ate a vuln stack, or someone got raised, or someone taking a tank buster (or your self) would feel really good and thematically fit PLD well. I'm not a fan of skills that are only useful in hyper specific situations, but perhaps Criterion dungeons will give me a new perspective. Deep Dungeon did not.

It's also important to note that if PLDs were decent enough at providing heals, it would allow healers to DPS more thus giving PLD even more thematic utility.

No Interventions main purpose is a Small damage reduction and a HOT, use it on a drk who helps reduce even more damage from TBN, and the small amount of damage they did take can be sustained by your Paladin without wasting a Healer resources, It's hot being 250 for 4 ticks is = 1000, Clemency being a Heal that is shared with it's oath gauge makes no sense.

If you're not a fan of "Hyper specific" then I don't see any comments on cover, nor something like Shield bash, the fact is Clemency has a more clear use even more so then those two, It's a GCD healing ability that opens up a lot to the PLD while you don't want to use but should be used in a lot of situations, Including when healers are struggling, when your healer is on the floor in a dungeon (Comes up for me more then you know), Solo content, Likely new content Dugeon content, fates, ect. Clemency actually has a lot of use cases in down time and progression so No clemency isn't niche enough nor should it be removed, clemency should feel bad when your trying to optimise your Damage rotation like using a GCD heal as a healer should, doesn't mean it should be removed.

If you wanna recommend adding something like a targeted OGCD Heal on Paladin I'm all for that, but we need Understand putting it with intervention and holy shelltron makes it practically useless as they already act as a heal with mitigation.

Originally Posted by Rithy255

No Interventions main purpose is a Small damage reduction and a HOT, use it on a drk who helps reduce even more damage from TBN, and the small amount of damage they did take can be sustained by your Paladin without wasting a Healer resources, It's hot being 250 for 4 ticks is = 1000, Clemency being a Heal that is shared with it's oath gauge makes no sense.

If you're not a fan of "Hyper specific" then I don't see any comments on cover, nor something like Shield bash, the fact is Clemency has a more clear use even more so then those two, It's a GCD healing ability that opens up a lot to the PLD while you don't want to use but should be used in a lot of situations, Including when healers are struggling, when your healer is on the floor in a dungeon (Comes up for me more then you know), Solo content, Likely new content Dugeon content, fates, ect. Clemency actually has a lot of use cases in down time and progression so No clemency isn't niche enough nor should it be removed, clemency should feel bad when your trying to optimise your Damage rotation like using a GCD heal as a healer should, doesn't mean it should be removed.

If you wanna recommend adding something like a targeted OGCD Heal on Paladin I'm all for that, but we need Understand putting it with intervention and holy shelltron makes it practically useless as they already act as a heal with mitigation.

Then buff Clemancy to 1500 potency or remove Intervention/Holy Shelltron's regen. Whatever you gotta do to make Clemancy be the go-to Oath gauge heal while Intervention/Holy Shelltron be the damage reduction. I'd rather keep both the regen and have a bigger heal, just adding to PLD's utility. Constantly looking at my party members' health bars for opportunities to heal them sounds like a whole lot of fun that would definitely make PLD useful and unique, far more so than what Intervention currently does. Even consider lowering one or both to 25 cost instead of 50.

I agree Shield Bash and Cover need looking at too, but Clemancy is a much quicker and easier fix. We already have Vercure for what Clemancy does, just go play RDM for that instead since it's actually more usable and less sacrifice in the same situations you would use Clemancy. I want Clemancy to be Oath Gauge OGCD and using it regularly to heal my party and it be good and useful. Make that happen, whatever it takes.

Originally Posted by Mithron

I actually love PLD's rotation and current playstyle. My only requests are bigger numbers and Clemancy become an OGCD that costs 50 Oath. Rather than forcing PLD into the 2 minute burst window playstyle, I'd rather that style be nuked and every job play more personally instead.

Yeah I agree with Rithy, Clemency serves as a great back-up tool for when healers are down. I'd Rather they remove Cover, Passage and Veil to create something along the things you want.

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Meanwhile DRG and AST have to wait until 7.0 (pushed off of 6.2 IIRC) to get their improvements.
.

You mean meanwhile we can enjoy AST and DRG at least until 7.0, while PLD gets ruined right away. I'm glad at least 2 out of 3 of my main classes will keep being fun (please revert minor arcana though) will keep being fun until the next expansion, while the class I play over any other and I felt comforted by it always being constant is being thrown in the meat grinder as soon as next patch.

With all the uniforming classes theyré doing, making them boring, etc, why do we even need so many classes. At some point they might as well mix them all in a single magaclass, since that's the direction.

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Meanwhile DRG and AST have to wait until 7.0 (pushed off of 6.2 IIRC) to get their improvements.

Originally Posted by Deceptus

improvements

Why does everyone want to get rid of PLDs shield bash?
It is a great situational tool for potd/hoh over world mobs and potentially the new criterion dungeons.

Overall I like and would like to keep the situational skills of a paladin, that's a unique part of him.

I can't count the amount of runs and death's I saved with cover. See it like rescue, but without the troll aspect.
The wing's can be used frequently in the current content because everyone is stacked anyway. And in addition to it you have a shield for everyone.
That PLD does not profit of it's own group CDs is again, part of the class identity and makes him different from the other tanks. Also, Tanks don't need the group mitigation for raid wides.

When they rework part's of him then I just hope that they keep his situational kit as it is.

Originally Posted by Curisu

Why does everyone want to get rid of PLDs shield bash?
It is a great situational tool for potd/hoh over world mobs and potentially the new criterion dungeons.

Overall I like and would like to keep the situational skills of a paladin, that's a unique part of him.

I can't count the amount of runs and death's I saved with cover. See it like rescue, but without the troll aspect.
The wing's can be used frequently in the current content because everyone is stacked anyway. And in addition to it you have a shield for everyone.
That PLD does not profit of it's own group CDs is again, part of the class identity and makes him different from the other tanks. Also, Tanks don't need the group mitigation for raid wides.

When they rework part's of him then I just hope that they keep his situational kit as it is.

Yeah I really hope they remove nothing. Wings are awesome, and shield bash is awesome in deep dungeons. Being able to chain stun enemies hugely increase your survival chances, especially if you stun them when they're about to use a nasty skill and/or they die fast enoguh to keep them stunned the whole fight. Just because a skill isn't used for raiding it doens't make it useless.

Originally Posted by Curisu

Why does everyone want to get rid of PLDs shield bash?
It is a great situational tool for potd/hoh over world mobs and potentially the new criterion dungeons.

Overall I like and would like to keep the situational skills of a paladin, that's a unique part of him.

I can't count the amount of runs and death's I saved with cover. See it like rescue, but without the troll aspect.
The wing's can be used frequently in the current content because everyone is stacked anyway. And in addition to it you have a shield for everyone.
That PLD does not profit of it's own group CDs is again, part of the class identity and makes him different from the other tanks. Also, Tanks don't need the group mitigation for raid wides.

When they rework part's of him then I just hope that they keep his situational kit as it is.

ok but would it really change much in overworld content and dungeons if shield bash was removed? Maybe Heaven on High and palace? but ok thats prolly a bit of a stretch case for one ability that generally takes up Paladins kit, Shield bash being so obscure basically becomes a button waste, if they were going to give Paladin new abilities or want to cut something I'd want it to be shield bash, Cover Should be changed but not removed.

Also Paladin not benefiting from group cds such as Divine veil being class identity from not benefiting from it is a weak reason, It being "different" doesn't always mean it's a good thing, I'm sorry but I can understand why people would defend Paladins current rotation but Paladin being "unique" because it doesn't benefit from its own raid wides is a poor reason to keep it as it is, It's not even unique it's just slightly worse shake it off.

Being unique for the sake of being unique isn't good game design, You can still make tanking kits different from one another without them being obscure or practically weighing down the class for "job idenity".
Shield bash doesn't need to be removed but if they were to remove a Paladin ability (because Paladin has a lot of bloat, I do think it's something they might be looking to do) I'd want it to be shield bash to be removed first 100%

Originally Posted by Curisu

Why does everyone want to get rid of PLDs shield bash?
It is a great situational tool for potd/hoh over world mobs and potentially the new criterion dungeons.

Overall I like and would like to keep the situational skills of a paladin, that's a unique part of him.

I can't count the amount of runs and death's I saved with cover. See it like rescue, but without the troll aspect.
The wing's can be used frequently in the current content because everyone is stacked anyway. And in addition to it you have a shield for everyone.
That PLD does not profit of it's own group CDs is again, part of the class identity and makes him different from the other tanks. Also, Tanks don't need the group mitigation for raid wides.

When they rework part's of him then I just hope that they keep his situational kit as it is.

You're job is going to become a Fell Cleave tank like the rest and you are probably not going to like it.