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  1. #361
    Player
    aveyond-dreams's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    1,881
    Character
    Reinhard Rosenritter
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by Soge01 View Post
    Aren't Thancred, Urianger and Estinien the gruff and standoffish type? Urianger fits the latter while, the other two fit both perfectly.
    No, not in their present forms. While some may have at one point with Thancred's goatee and Estinien's Heavensward characterization, all has since been winded down. For an extended discussion as to the sort of more masculine men we could see, there is exists this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soge01 View Post
    As for a softer female character, Alisaie??? Yeah, she's a tomboy with incredibly sharp tongue, but still.. xD
    I do not think she is the sort of fit for what I'd like to see in any future female party members. I don't even mind the tomboy thing, the issue comes from the way in which Endwalker had her become increasingly annoying and expressing "how much she cares" too frequently. She and her brother have both outstayed their welcome. I offer this thread for the sort of women that FFXIV could add in the future, in addition to the earlier one I linked.
    (4)
    Авейонд-сны


  2. #362
    Player
    Zanarkand-Ronso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
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    2,957
    Character
    Yunea Yevon
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Raoabolic View Post
    *looks at the helmet*
    Well how about that! And it was an obtuse example of explaining how those in the crowd never tend to believe they are a crowd. I hate giving the answers out like that. :/
    So again, are you being serious and trying to make a point, or is this about my Helmet? XD
    But the more I think about it, the more I kinda realize that maybe your not treating me as an individual, and just lazily lopping me with a crowd.
    (4)
    Last edited by Zanarkand-Ronso; 09-13-2022 at 01:18 PM.

  3. #363
    Player
    Boblawblah's Avatar
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    May 2022
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    300
    Character
    Shara Dei-ji
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Raoabolic View Post
    Because you rarely see that in entertainment anymore. When it happens, it's a breath of fresh air, lol.
    so, you're arguing that we "rarely see" stereotypical masculine men, and stereotypical feminine females in entertainment anymore?

    Or are you just referring to Final Fantasy XIV?
    (10)

  4. #364
    Player
    Midareyukki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,665
    Character
    Harun Asubra
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by TaleraRistain View Post
    snip
    Because had you read his posts a while back, that's the point of what he's saying :T

    Traditionally-masculine traits are villified because people have this ridiculous fixation that "masculine" = "testosterone junky", thuggish, violent, dirty, brute, dumb of head. Associating such traits does to it what you'd expect femininity to suffer with keywords like "demure, simple, domestic, beautiful, passive, petite"...
    There's nothing wrong with large, bulky characters who are gruff and pragmatic with some vices. It isn't "edgy". It just needs to be written right. People like Dante from DMC, he's literally all this. So's Balthier.
    But it's because it's so poorly characterized that media tends to shy away from making characters like that.

    We don't have a representation in FF14 of traditionally-masculine male characters who aren't treated as brutes or jocks. Either they're villains or they're comic relief. In the Scions, the closest we have is Thancred, and while he's no-nonsense, the most he's expressed this was characterized as bad, as it came from his traumas and they harmed Ryne.

    We do have other characters such as Raubahn or Gaius. But have you noticed how those are still Hyur-like? Where do you see Roegadyn act this way?

    Roegadyn are portrayed as loud, simple-minded brutes. Often antagonistic and amoral. The one who isn't is Gosetsu... and guess what, he's still a loud simpleton, he just displays a little bit more chivalry. Merlwyb and Moenbryda also fit this stereotype but are female characters. And while there's nothing wrong with a loud, strong and boisterous woman, when they all act the same, it's a stereotype. Any exception to this is an unvoiced character with a minor role. We're not going to seek representation out of those. And Roegadyn are often used as a meme race by the community AND THE DEVS. Because hyper-masculine traits are treated with ridicule.

    A race that's well-fit to have positive representation of traditionally-masculine traits without resorting to comic relief, degradation of the character due to racial stereotypes are Hrothgar. Chivalrous, respectful, gentile but can be quite feral in their mannerisms. And yet. Runar's meek. Magnus's depressed and constantly doubts life. I'd love to say the side content features better. But considering we're not given a chance to properly meet the Blades before they're unceremoniously offed... we're left with Bajsaljen, a good example. And Marsak, dumb simp.

    You bring up "Mysoginy" but it's fine to have traditionally feminine women. Why wouldn't it be? So long as the portrayal is positive and doesn't shame women for it nor tell them that that's how they MUST be. And here's the issue. It's misandry to say that men can't express traditionally-masculine traits in a positive way. It's fine for women to not be as intelligent as Y'shtola or as strong as Alisaie. And it should be fine for men to be strong, bulky and gruff.

    Edit of Edit: It really is fine for women to like girly and traditionally-feminine stuff. While you can argue about the implications and the social aspects of enjoying such things, it's still perfectly fine to enjoy Barbie and love Cottagecore aesthetics. So why is it such a big shock that men also feel comfortable with Action Man-style characters without reducing them to antagonism, unpleasantness or slapstick? Cabincore is a valid aesthetic as well.

    Edit 3:
    Limited daily posts are such trash -_- You really couldn't do this any other time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boblawblah View Post
    could you name the "traditionally masculine traits" you're referring to, so everyone is on the same page?
    Certainly.

    Traditionally masculine traits and adjectives include Chivalrous, Stern, Paternal, Firm, Strategist, Stability (emotional stability, monetary stability...), Dependable, Serious, Protective, Practical or Pragmatic, Disciplined, Athletic, Progressive, Self-Assured.
    If you want more physical traits, then you have Muscular, Scruffy, Large, Imposing, Deep-Voiced, Strong...

    Or, you know... read what Aveyond-Dreams said because if I'm agreeing with him, odds are his words are what page I'm on thinking for yourself isn't a bad thing Boblawblah. It's called context. Third time you haven't read past my post and come in to judge. Is this all you do, police people? Or are you stalking me for any ambiguity? Others have ambiguity in their posts too, why aren't you doing that to them? I wonder if this is reportable though, because, I told you before, please get off my back, you are making me uncomfortable. Not because you want me to explain myself, 0 qualms with that. But because of the way you ask things, when it takes just one minute to look up or think. If I were wrong, I'd get, but you're just being weird. Anyway.

    Modern masculinity and femininity tend to conflate stuff from eachother's traditional style. Often I see people define masculinity by the traits I mentioned on my previous post, which devalues what masculinity is meant to be. And worse, when I see masculinity being brought up, people react with "Misogyny!!" when really it's not. It doesn't have to be bad, just like how traditionally-feminine traits don't have to be bad, do they? Toxic masculinity is what you're considering if that's the case: dominant, forceful, aggressive...

    Now take all I said and question yourselves. With such traits, can you make a Roegadyn work without debasing them like Grynewaht? As I said, even Gosetsu was loud and boisterous. You don't need to make characters that are loud just to express that they're men or have masculine traits (in the case of female characters), do you? So why insist on adding that to Roegadyn when they're the largest and muscular race we have? Because it's every. damn. Roegadyn out there. The potential to portray masculinity with such a physique rarely ever discards the stereotype and focuses on those traits.

    You can argue that "when they were sundered, souls were incarnated into the traits they possessed the most", which would indeed create races born out of stereotypes... but a) No, because several characters break their race's stereotype both in and out of the Scions, and b) we know souls reincarnate into different bodies and races. Remember how a Sahagin had the Echo?

    If anyone wants to ask stuff like this, they're free to do so. But maybe read the context before asking, because that generally has an answer.
    (6)
    Last edited by Midareyukki; 09-13-2022 at 02:07 PM. Reason: *misandry, not androgyny. Two different concepts.
    --

  5. #365
    Player
    Boblawblah's Avatar
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    Shara Dei-ji
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    could you name the "traditionally masculine traits" you're referring to, so everyone is on the same page?
    (4)

  6. #366
    Player
    SentioftheHoukai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Solitude in Sohr Khai. Hraesvelgr, shield me from these Scions.
    Posts
    448
    Character
    Nyx Deorum
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 63
    Quote Originally Posted by TaleraRistain View Post
    Aveyond, nobody's trying to make you out to be a villain. But when you come in making comments about "sticking to their original form", you're coming from a perspective that has been very damaging to anyone who acts outside of this idea. And this is not something pushed by the modern media. All throughout history there have been people who did not fit these societally proscribed gender stereotypes. Women especially have had to fight the idea that we have to be soft and gentle and can't be intelligent or assertive or we need to be "put in our place". Please, I beg you, think about the things you are saying and viewpoint that you're putting forward.
    The problem with this line of thinking is, in my opinion, that nobody thinks on how such things can be damaging to the other binaries and demographics that aren't in foci by society right now. Instead of hypertuning our tunnel vision on one group of people to "save", we ought to be advocating for and loving all people beyond those who directly disrespect and slander us. But, humans have a way of only caring about their particular binary and crowd at any given moment. This is proven by my righteous anger in another thread that was twisted into a lack of advocation for a cause I hadn't invested in at the time, all the while my accusers blatantly and hypocritically showcased the very same onerous behaviours they attempted to crucify me for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midareyukki View Post
    Edit 3:
    Limited daily posts are such trash -_- You really couldn't do this any other time?


    Certainly.

    Traditionally masculine traits and adjectives include Chivalrous, Stern, Paternal, Firm, Strategist, Stability (emotional stability, monetary stability...), Dependable, Serious, Protective, Practical or Pragmatic, Disciplined, Athletic, Progressive, Self-Assured.
    If you want more physical traits, then you have Muscular, Scruffy, Large, Imposing, Deep-Voiced, Strong...

    Or, you know... read what Aveyond-Dreams said because if I'm agreeing with him, odds are his words are what page I'm on thinking for yourself isn't a bad thing Boblawblah. It's called context. Third time you haven't read past my post and come in to judge. Is this all you do, police people? Or are you stalking me for any ambiguity? Others have ambiguity in their posts too, why aren't you doing that to them? I wonder if this is reportable though, because, I told you before, please get off my back, you are making me uncomfortable. Not because you want me to explain myself, 0 qualms with that. But because of the way you ask things, when it takes just one minute to look up or think. If I were wrong, I'd get, but you're just being weird. Anyway.

    Modern masculinity and femininity tend to conflate stuff from eachother's traditional style. Often I see people define masculinity by the traits I mentioned on my previous post, which devalues what masculinity is meant to be. And worse, when I see masculinity being brought up, people react with "Misogyny!!" when really it's not. It doesn't have to be bad, just like how traditionally-feminine traits don't have to be bad, do they? Toxic masculinity is what you're considering if that's the case: dominant, forceful, aggressive...

    Now take all I said and question yourselves. With such traits, can you make a Roegadyn work without debasing them like Grynewaht? As I said, even Gosetsu was loud and boisterous. You don't need to make characters that are loud just to express that they're men or have masculine traits (in the case of female characters), do you? So why insist on adding that to Roegadyn when they're the largest and muscular race we have? Because it's every. damn. Roegadyn out there. The potential to portray masculinity with such a physique rarely ever discards the stereotype and focuses on those traits.

    You can argue that "when they were sundered, souls were incarnated into the traits they possessed the most", which would indeed create races born out of stereotypes... but a) No, because several characters break their race's stereotype both in and out of the Scions, and b) we know souls reincarnate into different bodies and races. Remember how a Sahagin had the Echo?

    If anyone wants to ask stuff like this, they're free to do so. But maybe read the context before asking, because that generally has an answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boblawblah View Post
    could you name the "traditionally masculine traits" you're referring to, so everyone is on the same page?
    This is just my opinion/theory, but I largely suspect she prodded you to speak of "masculine traits" in order to "catch you in the act", so to speak. This ofttimes assists in formulating a "Gotcha!" style debate point, whilst simultaneously being an attempt to avoid accountability for one's own actions by shifting the blame and providing "evidence" that your erstwhile victim just "provided you with."
    (3)
    Last edited by SentioftheHoukai; 09-13-2022 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Oh dear, MOAR dogged dialogue.

  7. #367
    Player
    Rannie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Ul'dah
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    2,794
    Character
    Rannie Lfey
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Hmm what about the Ex Mistbeard pirate captain who is the second in command of limsa and the maelstrom? He's a masculine Roe and doesn't completely fall under the stupid brawns category or act is all boisterous like goesetsu
    (5)
    I have a secret to tell. From my electrical well. It's a simple message and I'm leaving out the whistles and bells. So the room must listen to me Filibuster vigilantly. My name is blue canary one note* spelled l-i-t-e. My story's infinite Like the Longines Symphonette it doesn't rest- TMBG Birdhouse in your Soul
    A huge THANK YOU!!!! For FINALLY selling the Meteor Survivor Polo on the store. AND a huge thanks to my friend who bought it for me while he was at Fan Fest!!! YES I finally have my POLO!!!



  8. #368
    Player
    VelKallor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    1,287
    Character
    Vel Kallor
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    She and her brother have both outstayed their welcome.
    Actually, you've said this about all the Scions, and quite frankly, again, I have heard no one but you express this viewpoint. You were asked before and never answered:

    WHO would you replace them with and I have to ask as well, WHAT makes you think this massive change would be well received? How do you know that your viewpoint is shared by anyone else other than you?

    How do you know that doing so wont be a huge mistake?

    On WHAT do you base this conclusion? How do you know what the playerbase wants in term of characters and what it doesnt? We are all aware of your takes on this matter, which then begs the question: how do YOU know this will be a beneficial change, and not a catastrophic error?

    What metrics do you have that makes you so certain this is even remotely a good idea? We are talking millions of players, each of them with their own likes and dislikes, so on WHAT basis do you think this is a wise course of action.

    WHO other than you says "they have outstayed their welcome"?

    So i ask and I echo another player who also asked...and you ignored it then.

    So:

    WHO would replace them?

    Why?

    In what manner?

    For what reason?

    Under what circumstances?

    To do what?

    Without knowing ANYTHING about the future MSQ content ( you dont know what is coming, no one does ), how do YOU justify it and under what specific plotline? Bear in mind you do not work for SE and as such you have NO idea if your "ideas" are even feasible, let alone doable. How do you know they will be well received?

    How do you know the players will LIKE this change, as opposed to being vehemently against it..what you are suggesting is a major alteration that could hypothetically be SE's own Star Wars NGE disaster.

    It could do far more harm than good, so I ask again, how do YOU know what you are proposing wont go down like a lead balloon?
    (15)
    Last edited by VelKallor; 09-13-2022 at 03:09 PM.

  9. #369
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    11,147
    Character
    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Midareyukki View Post
    Roegadyn are portrayed as loud, simple-minded brutes. Often antagonistic and amoral. The one who isn't is Gosetsu... and guess what, he's still a loud simpleton, he just displays a little bit more chivalry. Merlwyb and Moenbryda also fit this stereotype but are female characters. And while there's nothing wrong with a loud, strong and boisterous woman, when they all act the same, it's a stereotype. Any exception to this is an unvoiced character with a minor role. We're not going to seek representation out of those.
    Why shouldn't unvoiced characters count? They're still characters.

    I play with the voices muted a lot of the time so I'm not sure if he's had voiced lines or not, but Merlwyb's second-in-command Eynzahr is one of the most regular Roegadyn characters we see, and he's played as loyal and capable, definitely not a dumb brute – and neither is Merlwyb for that matter. She gives an air of being a smart kind of adversary, not a "run in with guns blazing" sort.

    Meanwhile, Moenbryda has some of that energy but is also a really smart and capable scholar who comes into the story because the Scions need help with her field of scientific expertise.

    Rammbroes is another scholar and recurring character.

    And over in the WAR quests, while we do have Gorge playing up the big dumb stereotype, we also have his brother as a quieter and more competent healer-arcanist.

    Their design lends well to the stereotype but there are also plenty of characters who break it.
    (16)

  10. #370
    Player
    VelKallor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    1,287
    Character
    Vel Kallor
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Aveyond, I have a small story to tell you. Your snide crack about "having stuff handed to them"?

    I used to live next door to a soldier ( no details provided for obvious reasons ) , who was deployed to a combat zone near to us, going in harms way.

    Before he left, his father, then in his late 70's, handed him a vintage, perfectly preserved and functioning M1119A1, which HE himself had carried into battle in an earlier war. Father to son, I was allowed to look at it but not to touch it, as our nations gun laws STRICTLY prohibited me from doing so.

    He had asked and had been given special dispensation to carry it into the field. I will leave you to imagine how he felt, going into battle with his father's weapon at his side, it saw his father through one conflict, it would protect the son in the next.

    I am happy to say he returned alive, moved a few months afterward.

    Alphi's parents presenting him with his fathers nouliths is hardly an issue with "rich kids", they KNEW he was going, again, in harms way soon, and wanted him to carry and use them in battle.

    What father or mother anywhere would not do the same...btw you also missed one VERY subtle point with that scene, giving those to his son was a tacit acknowledgement that whatever issues they may have had, whatever political issues may have divided them, Alphinaud was still HIS SON, keeping him safe was always his first and only duty.

    "The minstrel boy to the war has gone
    In the ranks of death you will find him
    His fathers sword he hath girded on
    And his wild harp slung behind him"
    (12)
    Last edited by VelKallor; 09-13-2022 at 03:30 PM.

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