Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Alleo]

You don't get to cherry pick when you compare pros and cons of the choices available.

I mean what counts as pros and cons comes down to the people themselves. Would you as a modern person that has not grown up in any of the cities even fit in? What if you absolutely love individuality would Amaurot truly be a paradise to you? What if you dont even want that kind of life?

There are countless of people in this world that risk their lifes daily to do things that are fun for them, some even die young because of that. For those the pros and cons look probably much more different.

Next to all of that we also have no real look into the real Amaurot. What we saw from the city was a glimpse through Emet-Selchs memory of it. And some small hints in the stories. We dont know what life was for a ordinary ancient. We have two NPCs in phantom Amaurot that talk about how they got accepted into the city and one wonders if that was really a good choice. So it seems that not everyone may have been able to live there either.

Maybe you would not be allowed to be there. Maybe only the best of the best could stay. And how would life then be outside of the city walls? The only thing we know is that people outside needed help from time to time. Azem as a position was needed. And if it was not for our Azem a whole village would have lost their home to a volcano.

[Denishia]

Thank you for mentioning the mixed social tolerance for bipolar disorder, btw. I wasn't even going to mention my family, but some of the tone towards Hermes offended me out of silence.

If we're going by personal preference for a gameplay setting, then yes, I find it personally insulting to suggest Amaurot as the gameplay pick above practically ANY other setting or location in the game, but then I have no love for dense skyscrapers, the Art Deco immediately conjures the imminent Great Depression and onset rise of fascism -deliberate historical connotations with its connection to Emet Selch- I think the Ancients' robe and mask are some of the ugliest and blandest looks in the game. Plus hypothetically playing as an Ancient would limit all non-weapon gear and almost all dye options in the game not to mention go from 7 racial options to 1, and the longer we spend in the setting (Pandemonium) shows the limitations of having a 'paradise' for storylines that need conflict and action for an MMO. And that we are introduced to Amaurot immediately after dealing with Eulmore with its great luxury and ease and citizens that have relinquished their wealth- and the horrific inequality and oppression and even darker secrets plus the mind control- and Vauthry's claims that he's created his paradise. ShB is not being subtle here. To believe that this purposefully unsettling (yes- it was supposed to be a mix of sad and familiar but also uncomfortable and unsettling. For ME it was only ever the later) past place is the exception to all the others like Eulmore and Allag? Especially when all three are deeply connected to the same man? Who is motivated by deep emotion and self-delusion/internal strife and then claims his people were more rational and not controlled by emotions? Who wipes out 7 planets-worth of life and plans to do more all to restore a single one that he claims is better? When the NPCs of the First are no less characters in personality, morals, or strength than any of the Source NPCs, thus debunking the worthiness based on aetherical density. Yes, or debate topic, this sticking point. Where the emotional attachment to this this game that we have played three expansions-worth and possibly years of must war with an antagonist's illusion in the second half of the final zone, and from a loud section of the fanbase especially in this forum seems to have done so, I concede while vehemently disagreeing. Several posters have made it quite clear that they would balance the scales as the Ascians have. As even if there was a timeline in which the Endsinger's Call was stopped before the Final Days, or a better solution than sacrificing to Zodiark (especially the 3rd, and arguing that they weren't about to sacrifice new 'Ancient' souls I find ludicrous because that's what the Ascians are planning to do for the Rejoining. The dramatic tragic irony is that Emet's plan to free Hyth would be to imprison Azem.) I still would desperately want Ancient society to reform for the better somehow, because how it was repulsed me.

[Lurina]

I wanna clarify my intent on my last post a little bit, because I ended up worrying it might come across as callous towards people with clinical depression, which wasn't really my intent - I'm chronically depressed myself. Regardless of the nature of a society, I believe all societies have an obligation to help everyone in need as best they can. My point was that 'as best they can' is often determined by how widespread the problem they're suffering is.

IRL, I have a physical disability that's a bit too personal and obscure to explain, but that I think about in this context a lot. It's maybe a little conceited of me, but I'll use deafness as a stand-in for it since it's well-known, and I have some familial experience with that topic too.

We can probably agree that being deaf generally makes people's lives tougher and leaves them unable to experience a bunch of things others can, making it less than ideal and a potential cause of suffering. However, because quite a lot of people are deaf, they collectively impact culture enough that society has adapted somewhat to make their lives easier. There's also enough deaf people to form a large community and give everyone in it a chance to form connections with others who inherently 'get it' and find catharsis. This is good!

However, as we've technologically advanced, we've also found ways to help some people's hearing, and in other cases to prevent or cure deafness altogether... But critically, not universally - for the foreseeable future, there will always be some unwillingly deaf people. A lot of them are uncomfortable with these treatments because they perceive (correctly) that reducing the incidence of deafness will result in less social awareness and fewer functional support systems for it. As the amount of deaf people lowers, the suffering of the remaining deaf people will probably go up as the culture surrounding the condition is damaged.

There is nothing more lonely in the world than being one of the only sufferers of an issue, where no one understands your specific struggles, and there's nothing to do but shout them into the void. I have a lot of empathy for Hermes for this reason. But at the same time, I don't know if this is really a solvable issue. It's a paradox - the brighter future you make, the starker the shadows for those few behind.

...though, even this idealistic - most societies, including our own, don't even get as far as the 'trying to help people as best they can' part most of the time. The fact that Amaurot seems to makes it better than most cultures presented in the game, IMO.

Next to all of that we also have no real look into the real Amaurot. What we saw from the city was a glimpse through Emet-Selchs memory of it. And some small hints in the stories. We dont know what life was for a ordinary ancient. We have two NPCs in phantom Amaurot that talk about how they got accepted into the city and one wonders if that was really a good choice. So it seems that not everyone may have been able to live there either.

Sorry, where is this dialogue you're talking about, exactly?

[SannaR]

I want to say the Dialog Alleo is mentioning is near where we first enter the city. I'm not sure if it's an NPC speach bubble or only part of a quest while it's active. You know like the NPC that if you're not a hyur makes a comment about how you'd look exactly like Azem if it wasn't for your racial differences.

To toss my hat into the ring of where to live I wouldn't choose any of the three mentioned. Though if said three were my only choices I'd probably choose Thavnir. I love Nidhanna, but The Greatworks comes off as free riegn Alchemy. I'm sure they have some rules they have to follow, but they're capable of things no other Alchemists are able to do and that includes the Ul'dah Alchemists Guild Master who managed to make a potion that brought back his dead lover for five minutes.

[Lurina]

If we're going by personal preference for a gameplay setting, then yes, I find it personally insulting to suggest Amaurot as the gameplay pick above practically ANY other setting or location in the game, but then I have no love for dense skyscrapers, the Art Deco immediately conjures the imminent Great Depression and onset rise of fascism -deliberate historical connotations with its connection to Emet Selch- I think the Ancients' robe and mask are some of the ugliest and blandest looks in the game. Plus hypothetically playing as an Ancient would limit all non-weapon gear and almost all dye options in the game not to mention go from 7 racial options to 1, and the longer we spend in the setting (Pandemonium) shows the limitations of having a 'paradise' for storylines that need conflict and action for an MMO. And that we are introduced to Amaurot immediately after dealing with Eulmore with its great luxury and ease and citizens that have relinquished their wealth- and the horrific inequality and oppression and even darker secrets plus the mind control- and Vauthry's claims that he's created his paradise. ShB is not being subtle here. To believe that this purposefully unsettling (yes- it was supposed to be a mix of sad and familiar but also uncomfortable and unsettling. For ME it was only ever the later) past place is the exception to all the others like Eulmore and Allag? Especially when all three are deeply connected to the same man? Who is motivated by deep emotion and self-delusion/internal strife and then claims his people were more rational and not controlled by emotions? Who wipes out 7 planets-worth of life and plans to do more all to restore a single one that he claims is better? When the NPCs of the First are no less characters in personality, morals, or strength than any of the Source NPCs, thus debunking the worthiness based on aetherical density. Yes, or debate topic, this sticking point. Where the emotional attachment to this this game that we have played three expansions-worth and possibly years of must war with an antagonist's illusion in the second half of the final zone, and from a loud section of the fanbase especially in this forum seems to have done so, I concede while vehemently disagreeing. Several posters have made it quite clear that they would balance the scales as the Ascians have. As even if there was a timeline in which the Endsinger's Call was stopped before the Final Days, or a better solution than sacrificing to Zodiark (especially the 3rd, and arguing that they weren't about to sacrifice new 'Ancient' souls I find ludicrous because that's what the Ascians are planning to do for the Rejoining. The dramatic tragic irony is that Emet's plan to free Hyth would be to imprison Azem.) I still would desperately want Ancient society to reform for the better somehow, because how it was repulsed me.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but it sounds like you're judging Amaurot more on your aesthetic preference and its association with Emet then what's present in the actual text, and seeing things that aren't really substantiated. For example, it's alluded to at a few points that Emet designs societies that are specifically perverted echoes of Amaurot, not faithful ones, as part of his broader acts of self-deception when it comes to the inherent inferiority of the Sundered. Places like Garlemald and Allag aren't created lovingly; he kinda hates them and wants to feel okay with them going up in flames later.

Also, associating Art Deco with the Nazi's seems like a bit of a stretch. They copied a few motifs from it, but it was mainly a French and American architectural movement that fascists often thought of as decadent due to its use of abstract imagery. Hitler was way more into straight Neoclassicalism, which is more prominent in Sharlayan than anywhere else in the game; big white domes, pillars, and archways.

Because of the recurring use of jazz (which the Nazi's also hated), I'd say it's more meant to call to mind the 1920s: A period of immense prosperity and liberalization that ultimately ended in cataclysm, like Amaurot itself.

Obviously it's fine to dislike a setting just because of superficial elements or because it doesn't vibe right to you personally, since this is, well. A video game. But I think you might be projecting a little bit.

[KariTheFox]

When considering what fictional society I would "like" to live in, I always try to imagine myself being on the lowest sociopolitical rung of that society's ladder, since it actually would be nice to be wealthy in Ul'dah or a Governor in some Garlean colony.

So that immediately rules out Ul'dah and Thavanair and any other city with a apparent poverty problem, Garlemald is also out since I wouldn't want to be a ceruleam mining slave.

Eulmore under Varuthy as a servant for the free citizens would be alright if I had a marketable skill, but living with the fear that if I ever messed up or annoyed someone I could be arbitrarily thrown off the balcony would be too anxiety inducing.

Everyone seems pretty equal in the Crystarium, but ekeing out an existance on the first would be emotionally fufilling but demanding work.

Sharlayan doesn't seem to have much of a poverty problem, so I guess I would be a gleaner. It'd be a lot of physical labor, but it seems like I would be well compensated and my rights are well advocated for, also I would get to travel a lot.

In the Ancient society, I suppose I'd be a familiar. Which kind of turns how good existance is into a dice roll, maybe I'd be a familiar for someone who values me as an equal and research partner, which would be the best possible outcome. Or maybe I'd be a familiar for one of those ancients who thinks it would be fine if a creature in Elpis killed me, which would suck.

A lot of these choicea have pros and cons, I'd probably lean to either Sharlayan or the Crystarium, though.

[Cleretic]

When considering what fictional society I would "like" to live in, I always try to imagine myself being on the lowest sociopolitical rung of that society's ladder, since it actually would be nice to be wealthy in Ul'dah or a Governor in some Garlean colony.

Yeah, I feel like the default assumption for a lot of people with the 'where would I live' hypothetical is that they assume they'd be someone living well there. Whereas I am... fairly sure I would not, actually.

[Denishia]

Yes- I'm saying that as a purely aesthetic principle, I found Amaurot unappealing on both a visual AND societal level, so talk of where I would want to play a game it gets eliminated, and as for the 'if you had to live their IRL compared to other Eorzean city-states' I would also answer none of them or still want a non-Amaurotine option.

And that the 20s vibes was very deliberately signaling to be that this clearly Atlantis-expy was 'moments before destruction with paper-over fault-lines about to erupt' as a piece of clear story choice. And that I cannot stress how much I dislike Emet, cannot divorce him from fascism, and that his harping about the UnSundered being superior I find gross and false. And that I think Allag, Eulmore, Garlemald and even the unsavory parts of Sharleyan (their superiority complex, their pacifism, their Final Days plan to arbitrate which lifeforms are worthy of being saved) are supposed to be direct parallels to Amaurot, that Amaurot was not exempt from those issues nor was Emet creating this empires any less a warped nostalgia driven exercise in recreating at least some of his lost home as much as Phantom Amaurot, even if he was aiming to destroy them, thus perpetuating his trauma.

[DisAstranagant]

When considering what fictional society I would "like" to live in, I always try to imagine myself being on the lowest sociopolitical rung of that society's ladder, since it actually would be nice to be wealthy in Ul'dah or a Governor in some Garlean colony.

So that immediately rules out Ul'dah and Thavanair and any other city with a apparent poverty problem, Garlemald is also out since I wouldn't want to be a ceruleam mining slave.

Eulmore under Varuthy as a servant for the free citizens would be alright if I had a marketable skill, but living with the fear that if I ever messed up or annoyed someone I could be arbitrarily thrown off the balcony would be too anxiety inducing.

Everyone seems pretty equal in the Crystarium, but ekeing out an existance on the first would be emotionally fufilling but demanding work.

Sharlayan doesn't seem to have much of a poverty problem, so I guess I would be a gleaner. It'd be a lot of physical labor, but it seems like I would be well compensated and my rights are well advocated for, also I would get to travel a lot.

In the Ancient society, I suppose I'd be a familiar. Which kind of turns how good existance is into a dice roll, maybe I'd be a familiar for someone who values me as an equal and research partner, which would be the best possible outcome. Or maybe I'd be a familiar for one of those ancients who thinks it would be fine if a creature in Elpis killed me, which would suck.

A lot of these choicea have pros and cons, I'd probably lean to either Sharlayan or the Crystarium, though.

Why would you imagine being a familiar if you lived in ancient society but not a familiar, mammet or even animal when considering current Etheirys?

[Denishia]

When considering what fictional society I would "like" to live in, I always try to imagine myself being on the lowest sociopolitical rung of that society's ladder, since it actually would be nice to be wealthy in Ul'dah or a Governor in some Garlean colony.

So that immediately rules out Ul'dah and Thavanair and any other city with a apparent poverty problem, Garlemald is also out since I wouldn't want to be a ceruleam mining slave.

Eulmore under Varuthy as a servant for the free citizens would be alright if I had a marketable skill, but living with the fear that if I ever messed up or annoyed someone I could be arbitrarily thrown off the balcony would be too anxiety inducing.

Everyone seems pretty equal in the Crystarium, but ekeing out an existance on the first would be emotionally fufilling but demanding work.

Sharlayan doesn't seem to have much of a poverty problem, so I guess I would be a gleaner. It'd be a lot of physical labor, but it seems like I would be well compensated and my rights are well advocated for, also I would get to travel a lot.

In the Ancient society, I suppose I'd be a familiar. Which kind of turns how good existance is into a dice roll, maybe I'd be a familiar for someone who values me as an equal and research partner, which would be the best possible outcome. Or maybe I'd be a familiar for one of those ancients who thinks it would be fine if a creature in Elpis killed me, which would suck.

A lot of these choicea have pros and cons, I'd probably lean to either Sharlayan or the Crystarium, though.

Exactly my thought process as well. And one that I know is actively at odds with the MMO gameplay itself, because by the very nature of playing the WoL, we are playing a power fantasy where our issekai'd self is the most powerful wish fulfillment position, by genre conventions. Which is why it's important to me that we are playing as an altruistic hero who needs the power of friendship to succeed and why the 30-50 DRK quests fall fall for me.