How strong is the Warrior of Light?

[Necrotica]

Agreed.

I tend to think the fact that a lot of players hated losing to Zenos means that the story did something right.

Is that you Rian Johnson?

[Absimiliard]

The problem was Zenos coming out of left field, I think. Up until that point players had been given every reason to think the WoL was well beyond the limits of other mortals. Then suddenly along comes Zenos to smack them down without even trying, and even when the WoL does finally win it's shown to be a particularly hard fought battle. That said, even Zenos didn't really do anything about the idea of the WoL being some kind of monster considering they were the only one ever able to hang with him at any point in time. It probably could have worked if handled a bit better.

Showing Zenos absolutely dominate multiple seasoned combatants pretty well shot any such notions in the foot. If the best and brightest of the Scions and their allies couldn't even dent the guy, then the WoL going toe to toe with him -- even if defeated -- for any length of time sets them right back to being a major outlier. Even moreso once we discover Zenos was experimented on as a child (even before birth in some localizations); not just by some of the Empire's greatest minds but even by Emet-Selch himself. He was prodigiously gifted and monstrously powerful pretty well from birth. Then, on top of everything else, he picked up Resonance and practically overnight became so gifted in the use of aether even Elidibus didn't want to risk facing him directly.

Then we got Ran'jit, who is shown to have an advantage similar to that of Zenos for (at that time) no discernible reason. It's later handwaved as his fighting style being "unfamiliar" to the WoL. The takeaway was that Ran'jit's tremendous skill in a never-before-seen combat style allowed him to be effective only temporarily, after which the massive gap in power between what was ostensibly a normal, although highly skilled, man and the WoL resulted in him getting absolutely stomped into the ground. The narrative doesn't even treat him as a credible threat the last time around.

The various faction leaders (the ones that actually fight), for all their power and skill, are likewise expressly stated and clearly shown to be well below the WoL's level despite each being an exemplar in their respective fields.

Bearing these things in mind, is it any wonder people react poorly to a mortal opponent defeating the WoL in single combat? It's less about the "I feel mad because I lost" and more about perceiving it as narrative whiplash.

[KageTokage]

I'm really not a fan of forced losses where it doesn't feel like a struggle at all, then the boss just suddenly one-shots you after a certain point. I've seen other games that better disguise an unwinnable battle by making them take normal amounts of damage and gradually scaling up their mechanics and damage to the point where it becomes overwhelming.

Likewise, I didn't really like the utilization of Zenos just getting random OHKO cheap shots in the final battle against him to forcibly make him seem threatening because I feel like all the other ridiculous unavoidable attacks he was throwing out sold that point well enough as is.

The EW ranged DPS role quest sets up an "unwinnable" situation probably the best out of any of the solo duties by having the boss repeatedly do unavoidable AoEs between mechanics that outscale your HP regeneration but can't actually kill you, so it creates a more believable sense of struggling and makes you feel like you'll need some help to win.

[Dikatis]

I do get the feeling of whiplash (that was my reaction too when I got beaten by him) and I would've appreciated more allusions to Zenos as the Empire's most fearsome soldier (when Gaius previously held that position in the audience's consciousness).

But in hindsight, Zenos triumphing over WoL almost effortlessly does make some sense when you take into account Ysayle's previous statement that she hadn't seen WoL use the limits of their power since their battle at Akh Afah Ampitheatre. The nature of dynamis empowering someone in moments of exultation and desperation means that WoL, while determined to kill Zenos because of what he did, would not have been at their best by the nature of being blindsided by the threat Zenos posed. Post-Resonance revival, WoL is pretty much the only mortal who stands a chance against Zenos one-on-one and the story treats it with immense gravity.

I wouldn't call Ran'jit a "normal" man when he casually knocks a cart and Talos that together weigh several tons into the heir with a single kick. His strength is demonstrated along with a fighting style WoL has never seen before on top of having decades of experience over WoL. I do agree that he's offed kind of unceremoniously, though it also makes some sense given that Thancred grievously injured Ran'jit before WoL's final duel with him. That said, the fight is protracted one and Ran'jit is pulling out one big AOE after another, so I wouldn't say WoL "stomped" Ran'jit. Not to mention that his body vanished but that never got followed up on.

Though on the nature of the fights with Zenos, I enjoyed the ludonarrative use of Concentravity as a gauge for WoL's progress. In their first fight, getting hit with it instantly takes them out of the fight. In the second, it hurts, but WoL continues to fight afterward. At Ala Mhigo, it's just another roomwide for WoL to tank. WoL's experiences over the expansion strengthened them enough to brush off an attack that completely incapacitated them earlier in the expansion.

[Absimiliard]

We can't attribute everything to dynamis. Until otherwise stated, the general assumption is that most of the WoL's abilities are based in aether, skill, and good ol' fashioned brute force.

Ran'jit's physical strength is nothing too over the top. We've seen mortals before capable of similar feats, some capable of far more. The WoL in particular is shown to possess outright Herculean levels of physical strength. Now, I do agree on the experience. That would factor in to Ran'jit's sheer skill at that wonky fighting style of his. Injury, however? Perhaps it was left out of the localization of the game I play on (or perhaps I've simply done my level best to forget Ran'jit even existed), but I don't recall there being any mention of Ran'jit being debilitated when you face him for the last time. Quite the contrary; he seems to be fit as a fiddle, and he comes at you with everything he's got. Mechanically, the fight really doesn't seem protracted or even particularly involved. He's got a middling at best HP pool, and his attacks are barely damaging. He just sorta sits there while you beat the brakes off of him.

[Dikatis]

I don't think it was ever mentioned, I just figured that Ran'jit would be off his game given how he was forced to retreat the first time due to Thancred along with Ryne's complete and utter rejection of him and everything he stood for.

I think that has more to do with solo duties being easy enough for even the most casual players to clear so they can progress the story. It's a fight design rather than a story issue, since Ran'jit is treated as Vauthry's last and greatest line of defense while the Scions keep the brainwashed Eulmorans at bay. WoL doesn't treat it as a walk in the park and approaches the fight with deadly seriousness after acclimating to his fighting style by facing and fleeing him repeatedly through Shadowbringers. WoL has also been training the entire time and growing from their experiences (inventing the new skills that you use in the expansion entirely on their own), so them meeting Ran'jit on even ground following all of this makes sense to me.

[Absimiliard]

I wouldn't say first time. The narrative makes it pretty clear Ran'jit has been in the game for a long time, and he's seen his share of defeats and failures along the way. Being beaten wouldn't shake the resolve of a man of his experience. While I'm certain Ryne's rejection stung, I'm also quite sure Ran'jit's strong will and general professionalism in carrying out his duties would prompt him to fight to the best of his abilities regardless.

Ran'jit is indeed treated as Vauthry's last and greatest line of defense, but he is also summarily dismissed after his defeat, having seemingly left nary a mark on the Warrior of Light during their final encounter. Disregarding the ease of the fight itself, the way things are handled afterward narratively fails to convey any sort of real weight. He's dismissed just like any other corpse the WoL has stepped over on their way to seeing their mission(s) through.

We saw consequences with Zenos. Defeating Zenos the first time was shown to be physically taxing and quite costly, not to mention traumatizing. The same was true with his second defeat as Shinryu. He wasn't just some schmuck to be dismissed; Zenos was a monster, and the narrative makes it very clear each and every encounter with him takes everything the WoL has and more. Any one of those battles could've gone the other way very easily. These things ring even truer during their final battle, in which the WoL is left a hair's breadth away from oblivion despite having come out on top.

Frankly, their final battlefield would have become the WoL's grave as well were it not for Zenos' dying wish for them to survive being enough to stir their dynamis-laden surroundings into action.

[Dikatis]

I wouldn't say first time. The narrative makes it pretty clear Ran'jit has been in the game for a long time, and he's seen his share of defeats and failures along the way. Being beaten wouldn't shake the resolve of a man of his experience. While I'm certain Ryne's rejection stung, I'm also quite sure Ran'jit's strong will and general professionalism in carrying out his duties would prompt him to fight to the best of his abilities regardless.

Ran'jit is indeed treated as Vauthry's last and greatest line of defense, but he is also summarily dismissed after his defeat, having seemingly left nary a mark on the Warrior of Light during their final encounter. Disregarding the ease of the fight itself, the way things are handled afterward narratively fails to convey any sort of real weight. He's dismissed just like any other corpse the WoL has stepped over on their way to seeing their mission(s) through.

I see your point. Ran'jit definitely feels like a character the writers planned to do more with but just couldn't under time constraints and the shift of the story's focus to Emet-Selch and the true nature of the Ascians. I feel like Ran'jit could have been one of the story's great villains had he been treated as more than an obstacle to the heroes as a foil to Thancred. His single-minded monomania regarding Ryne sapped pretty much any sympathetic qualities Ran'jit has along with his flagrant disregard for his own men. He could have been framed as a grizzled, old version of the Warrior of Light, a hero who fell in the face of constant failure, but that role as a shadow archetype was once again shifted to Emet-Selch.

I do wish his "corpse" vanishing was actually followed up on or that we could've learned more about the man Ran'jit was before the loss of the Minfilias broke him.

Vauthry by contrast is constantly in the spotlight and revealed to be the result of Emet-Selch's machinations to destroy the First as part of the Rejoinings, raised from birth to believe that he is the world's only hope, savior, and god. Hence his title as "Innocence" making him more pitiable than Ran'jit despite being even more heinous.

[Absimiliard]

I believe the difference to be choice. Ran'jit had the option to choose his path in life. Vauthry was the opposite; Emet-Selch functionally condemned him from birth to one day become Innocence. Emet-Selch gave Vauthry a Lightwarden's power, but it was his own parents that truly ruined him -- they spoiled him, believing it was through right he would rule; right of power, right of blood. He was never taught anything but blind self-righteousness and bottomless gluttony. He was never loved by his parents as he should've been, probably never had any friends due to his upbringing, and most definitely never had anybody around he could truly trust. Vauthry was as lonely as he was broken.

Ran'jit could easily have been fleshed out more. It might've made him more sympathetic, and it would definitely have made people more receptive of getting their teeth kicked in by him a few times. It's often wise to avoid telling too much about one's villains, but Ran'jit serves as an excellent reminder of the consequences of revealing too little.