How strong is the Warrior of Light?

[Necrotica]

That fight, and the scenes before/after it, had a big impact on me. It really established Zenos as a threat and made me concerned about any time we'd have to face him again. I was worried about how he would react to the other events that happened, particularly in Doma.

Having the player character feel so weak isn't something I really expected out of an MMO or an RPG. I do think it should've been made to be a bigger moment, it felt a bit odd confronting him towards the end of Stormblood since I didn't feel that much stronger. At first I didn't enjoy the experience of being beaten like that, but it did add a good amount of tension to the expansion.

It seemed to be a weird attempt at making levels semi-canon. Oh you can't beat this guy cause he is 10 levels higher. Oh look you got closer to winning cause you are only 5 levels lower. Okay you are the same level now. Kick his ass.

The losses were a horrible design though. If I have to lose just make me lose in a damn cutscene. Don't make me waste time in an unwinnable fight. But if I am being honest I would still complain about losing in a cutscene.

New idea. Just let me win at all times. I like that.

[Carin-Eri]

That fight, and the scenes before/after it, had a big impact on me. It really established Zenos as a threat and made me concerned about any time we'd have to face him again. I was worried about how he would react to the other events that happened, particularly in Doma.

Having the player character feel so weak isn't something I really expected out of an MMO or an RPG. I do think it should've been made to be a bigger moment, it felt a bit odd confronting him towards the end of Stormblood since I didn't feel that much stronger. At first I didn't enjoy the experience of being beaten like that, but it did add a good amount of tension to the expansion.

The fact that it hadn't been done before (and hasn't really been done since) was a good thing in my eyes. Much like you, I didn't expect it and (judging by comments here, on social media and reaction videos) it was quite a common feeling/reaction amongst players.

Eitherway - I, personally, don't enjoy stories where the hero always wins. In my view having a Bane (defeated Batman) or a Doomsday (defeated Superman) is character building - sadly, the FFXIV writers dropped the ball there somewhat since, as noted, aside from some sulking and wounded pride we quickly forgot about our defeat.

Also, in the context of previous discussion in this very thread, it was one of the only times we actually fought alone.

[Dikatis]

Eitherway - I, personally, don't enjoy stories where the hero always wins. In my view having a Bane (defeated Batman) or a Doomsday (defeated Superman) is character building - sadly, the FFXIV writers dropped the ball there somewhat since, as noted, aside from some sulking and wounded pride we quickly forgot about our defeat.

I mean, what kind of development were you expecting from WoL? For them to have a full blown existential crisis because they got beat? They're the Warrior of Light. The one everyone looks up to. They can't afford to be down for long. Because if they're whining about how hopeless things are, everyone else will believe the same thing. It's in character for them to pick themselves up after a beating and go in for round 2. That's why the few moments where the veneer cracks and they let themselves be vulnerable are so impactful. Haurchefant's and Ysayle's sacrifices, the helplessness they feel when the Scions are called one by one to the first, the thought of turning into a Lightwarden that will devour their friends, the anguish when the Scions willingly risk non-existence to pave a path for WoL to reach Meteion's nest. Having them throw an angst fest or something over getting their butt kicked just feels painfully out of character.

The Dark Knight quests are all about the part of themselves that can't be a hero. The part of them that wants to run away and shirk responsibility, throw a tantrum when they're mistreated, to inflict vigilante justice on every person who has ever crossed them. They look this part of themselves in the eye and say, "No." They continue to soldier on and reassure others with a smile even when they're panicking and torn up inside. Until the end of the Stormblood DRK quests, they're convinced that they're an awful person and a harbinger of doom to friend and foe. Only after confronting their grief and guilt personified in Myste do they forgive themselves and finally accept that they're a good person, even if they deserve whatever reckoning comes to them down the line.

And well, WoL doesn't always win. They've been kidnapped, pinned, brought to the precipice of death, and had to be rescued by others time and again throughout the expansions. WoL actively shows signs of PTSD in Heavensward (indeed, they never accept food from a stranger again unless the food is prepared in front of them or other people are eating it too) and blame themselves for every life they end and every life they fail to save.

[Carin-Eri]

I mean, what kind of development were you expecting from WoL? For them to have a full blown existential crisis because they got beat? They're the Warrior of Light. The one everyone looks up to. They can't afford to be down for long. Because if they're whining about how hopeless things are, everyone else will believe the same thing. It's in character for them to pick themselves up after a beating and go in for round 2. That's why the few moments where the veneer cracks and they let themselves be vulnerable are so impactful. Haurchefant's and Ysayle's sacrifices, the helplessness they feel when the Scions are called one by one to the first, the thought of turning into a Lightwarden that will devour their friends, the anguish when the Scions willingly risk non-existence to pave a path for WoL to reach Meteion's nest. Having them throw an angst fest or something over getting their butt kicked just feels painfully out of character.

The Dark Knight quests are all about the part of themselves that can't be a hero. The part of them that wants to run away and shirk responsibility, throw a tantrum when they're mistreated, to inflict vigilante justice on every person who has ever crossed them. They look this part of themselves in the eye and say, "No." They continue to soldier on and reassure others with a smile even when they're panicking and torn up inside. Until the end of the Stormblood DRK quests, they're convinced that they're an awful person and a harbinger of doom to friend and foe. Only after confronting their grief and guilt personified in Myste do they forgive themselves and finally accept that they're a good person, even if they deserve whatever reckoning comes to them down the line.

And well, WoL doesn't always win. They've been kidnapped, pinned, brought to the precipice of death, and had to be rescued by others time and again throughout the expansions. WoL actively shows signs of PTSD in Heavensward (indeed, they never accept food from a stranger again unless the food is prepared in front of them or other people are eating it too) and blame themselves for every life they end and every life they fail to save.

Just a little bit more than what basically amounted to 'Ouchies! ..... oh well'.

[indigo_imp]

It seemed to be a weird attempt at making levels semi-canon. Oh you can't beat this guy cause he is 10 levels higher. Oh look you got closer to winning cause you are only 5 levels lower. Okay you are the same level now. Kick his ass.

Oh that was completely lost on me. I don't recall exactly how the fights went, but I got the feeling Zenos wasn't really putting much effort in, especially in the first fight. I remember wondering how things would go in the last dungeon there, I wasn't confident at all that we could actually beat him. In the options given with Lyse before that fight, I think I chose an option that seemed like the more uncertain response and she didn't like that too much.

The fights themselves did make me feel odd for sure, especially the first one. I was still adjusting to red mage at the time and I was wondering why I wasn't doing much damage at all. I remember worrying about Yugiri in the second one.

I think it's definitely a tricky path to walk on, having a losing fight is an interesting twist I think as long as it's handled well.

The fact that it hadn't been done before (and hasn't really been done since) was a good thing in my eyes. Much like you, I didn't expect it and (judging by comments here, on social media and reaction videos) it was quite a common feeling/reaction amongst players.

Eitherway - I, personally, don't enjoy stories where the hero always wins. In my view having a Bane (defeated Batman) or a Doomsday (defeated Superman) is character building - sadly, the FFXIV writers dropped the ball there somewhat since, as noted, aside from some sulking and wounded pride we quickly forgot about our defeat.

Also, in the context of previous discussion in this very thread, it was one of the only times we actually fought alone.

Reflecting on it now, in view of the point you made about it being a pity that it wasn't explored more, I definitely agree it was a missed opportunity. Maybe they could've had the WoL build stronger connections with the scions as a result of that fight, or made them have a moment of reflection. I think this was the first time a fight didn't go as expected for them, especially in a way that was this one-sided. I wonder if it builds a bit of a disconnect when you have an event like that and not have it addressed or elaborated on with the same weight.

It could've been a good opportunity for characters like Raubahn or others who have more combat advice (or other types of advice) to connect more to the WoL.

I definitely appreciated how things went in Shadowbringers with the phase of weakness/uncertainty that was there for the WoL after beating the last lightwarden. That made me more attached to them, and added such a heavy weight to the final part of the expansion.

[ICountFrom0]

There are mechanics the game COULD have used to make the fights clearly unwinable without resorting to just "down for the count if you get him to 50%".

There's both evil and gravity magic coded in the game, all you do is code his auto attacks to be evil (completely unblockable and unmitigatable) damage for 10% of your HP (rounded down), and trigger down for the count when you go critical.

To counter healers who can heal themselves you just give his normal abilities interupt on the cast bars. You either stand still, and get hit, and thus can't heal, or you move, and can't heal.

You could even have him get stacks of attack up that increase the gravity a few % at a time.

I've used nothing that isn't already coded into the game in one place or another, but I've also produced a fight that feels like he's TOYING with you, that you absolutely can't win, but you won't instantly die or go down for the count from full health.

Thing is, if I can do that... Why didn't they? Did they WANT the ludonaritive disonance? Or was Stormblood just a low point for them too?

[Cleretic]

Thing is, if I can do that... Why didn't they? Did they WANT the ludonaritive disonance? Or was Stormblood just a low point for them too?

Becuase if they did do that, the people complaining wouldn't be suddenly happy, they'd be complaining about that instead. The complaint of 'I don't think I should have lost to that enemy' isn't actually born of logic, it's born of feeling, and trying to solve the problem with different logic just moves the goalposts and creates a different color of the same argument.

Your suggestion for example completely fails to account for most tanks, which have invulns, self-healing, and interrupts (in fact I'm pretty sure you accidentally described the EW tank quest's final boss). Your theoretical mechanic might crack through Hallowed Ground's outright invulnerability, but it doesn't beat Holmgang, Living Dead or Superbolide, whose invuln mechanic are instead different variants of 'cannot hit zero HP'. You have not quashed the argument, you've merely redirected it, because the game still needs them to lose that fight.

The actual answer is the answer that they've done since Final Fantasy II: to not sweat these mechanical details that don't actually matter, just do the plot-loss fight, and do your best to get the storytelling around said fight to sell the fact you just lost. Sell it with feeling, rather than logic. Sometimes you can swing using mechanics to help tell that story, but that cannot be your only tool. FFXIV mostly succeeds at this; sure, it doesn't feel great when it happens, but it's also not supposed to, and anyone who hasn't decided that they're playing as Superman generally accept the idea of 'this guy's better at fighting than me' and move on.

[ICountFrom0]

Evil damage pieces that. Evil damage is the mechanic behind "everybody takes damage no matter what".

I don't mind failing something that's done right.
I do mind a boss that just ends the fight in a single hit after I've worked him down to half hp because it felt like a fight that COULD be won, but didn't.
That just feels badly designed.

Some folks, gonna complain no matter what.. but to have a game that's normally this well designed work that badly, just seems jarringly wrong.

[Silverbane]

Don't tell any of the NPCs this, but we WoLs are stronger than dirt.
If they ever discover this, we'll be scrubbing latrines every third MSQ.

[Carin-Eri]

Becuase if they did do that, the people complaining wouldn't be suddenly happy, they'd be complaining about that instead. The complaint of 'I don't think I should have lost to that enemy' isn't actually born of logic, it's born of feeling, and trying to solve the problem with different logic just moves the goalposts and creates a different color of the same argument.

Your suggestion for example completely fails to account for most tanks, which have invulns, self-healing, and interrupts (in fact I'm pretty sure you accidentally described the EW tank quest's final boss). Your theoretical mechanic might crack through Hallowed Ground's outright invulnerability, but it doesn't beat Holmgang, Living Dead or Superbolide, whose invuln mechanic are instead different variants of 'cannot hit zero HP'. You have not quashed the argument, you've merely redirected it, because the game still needs them to lose that fight.

The actual answer is the answer that they've done since Final Fantasy II: to not sweat these mechanical details that don't actually matter, just do the plot-loss fight, and do your best to get the storytelling around said fight to sell the fact you just lost. Sell it with feeling, rather than logic. Sometimes you can swing using mechanics to help tell that story, but that cannot be your only tool. FFXIV mostly succeeds at this; sure, it doesn't feel great when it happens, but it's also not supposed to, and anyone who hasn't decided that they're playing as Superman generally accept the idea of 'this guy's better at fighting than me' and move on.

Agreed.

I tend to think the fact that a lot of players hated losing to Zenos means that the story did something right.