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  1. #1
    Player
    Carin-Eri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Old Sharlayan
    Posts
    1,870
    Character
    Carin Eri
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC View Post
    As strong as the plot demands them to be or as strong as will make for an interesting story.

    If you want "feats", there's no clear answer as almost every big thing that the WoL faces is done so with the help of the Scions, Adventurer buddies, or some other manner of boost (empowered by the eye of Hraesvelgr when fighting Nidhogg; suffused with the Light of all the lightwardens when facing Hades, only able to control it thanks to the rejoining of Ardbert and the WoL; pushed forward by the prayers and hopes of the Scions on the edge of existence; etc.).

    The biggest, baddest, thing that the WoL has faced and defeated on their own is, well, Zenos and Shinryu, and even then it's unclear if the WoL was alone when fighting Shinryu. Certainly they were when fighting Zenos at the edge of existence but how much they were empowered at that point with the wishes of the Scions that they return (after all the edge of existence is more of a metaphor than a tangible place). And even in that situation they nearly died.

    In the end, looking at things in a "feats" perspective is reductive, since it dismisses the realities of combat. The WoL, in the end, is still just a person, if you poison them or stab them, they'll crumple like any other, if they get distracted while engaged in combat, they'll take blows like any other. They're just unique in that their soul is more dense and have access to the Echo (and the Blessing of Light besides), and well in that they help people out which makes them liked and then they help out.

    People can and will match them martially or mystically.
    This.

    And Endsinger played on the fact that the WoL isn't really one to face big threats alone:
    "You gifted them escape and left yourself powerless. Bereft of the synergy you claim is your strength."
    (4)

  2. 09-08-2022 04:17 AM

  3. #3
    Player
    SenshiDon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    13
    Character
    Alteisen Nacht
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC View Post
    As strong as the plot demands them to be or as strong as will make for an interesting story.

    If you want "feats", there's no clear answer as almost every big thing that the WoL faces is done so with the help of the Scions, Adventurer buddies, or some other manner of boost (empowered by the eye of Hraesvelgr when fighting Nidhogg; suffused with the Light of all the lightwardens when facing Hades, only able to control it thanks to the rejoining of Ardbert and the WoL; pushed forward by the prayers and hopes of the Scions on the edge of existence; etc.).

    The biggest, baddest, thing that the WoL has faced and defeated on their own is, well, Zenos and Shinryu, and even then it's unclear if the WoL was alone when fighting Shinryu. Certainly they were when fighting Zenos at the edge of existence but how much they were empowered at that point with the wishes of the Scions that they return is unclear (after all the edge of existence is more of a metaphor than a tangible place). And even in that situation they nearly died.

    In the end, looking at things in a "feats" perspective is reductive, since it dismisses the realities of combat. The WoL, in the end, is still just a person, if you poison them or stab them, they'll crumple like any other, if they get distracted while engaged in combat, they'll take blows like any other. They're just unique in that their soul is more dense and have access to the Echo (and the Blessing of Light besides), and well in that they help people out which makes them liked and then they help out.

    People can and will match them martially or mystically.
    This is one of the better answers I've gotten! A few things, though.

    I think there are a few feats that can be pointed to, such as when we fought Eden Prime. Eden created an alternate reality exactly like Sephiroth's Supernova (which is confirmed to be an alternate reality, not just an illusion. I'm new to the forums and can't figure out how to post scans, otherwise I'd back up this claim), blasted the WoL through the vacuum of space into a galaxy which then exploded in their face... and they were fine. I don't recall them surviving this under any sort of outside help, either. There are a plethora of other examples, but that one immediately comes to mind. And of course, the WoL has become much stronger since then, evidenced when they 1v1'ed Zenos who was empowered by enough of the mother crystal to assume his Shinryu form along with all of its abilities, and I don't think the hopes and prayers of the Scions were empowering the WoL at this point either. With this in mind, I doubt that something as simple as stabbing the WoL is going to stop them.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player FireMage's Avatar
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    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,050
    Character
    Firemage Li
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SenshiDon View Post
    Hmm... I'm not sure about that. As for Emet-Selch, he was stronger than us before we fused with Ardbert, sure, but after G'raha summoned warriors to help us (which is something we can do at will now thanks to Azem's Crystal), we were able to best him. Same thing with the Endsinger, although I will concede that in the case of the Endsinger we did have outside help.
    You are aware that both took the work of over a dozen people to down, yes?
    (3)

  5. #5
    Player
    Absimiliard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    2,031
    Character
    Cassius Rex
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    About the only things seeming to pose a genuine threat to the WoL are godlike and above entities at this point. ....And Zenos for some reason. It's going to be a rather jarring case of plot whiplash if we suddenly start encountering mortals stronger than them after everything they've fought. And, y'know, that whole being made up of most of Azem's essence thing.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Necrotica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    619
    Character
    Dolly Derringer
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Absimiliard View Post
    About the only things seeming to pose a genuine threat to the WoL are godlike and above entities at this point. ....And Zenos for some reason. It's going to be a rather jarring case of plot whiplash if we suddenly start encountering mortals stronger than them after everything they've fought. And, y'know, that whole being made up of most of Azem's essence thing.
    Don't forget random old monk dude on the First. CAUSE REASONS!!!
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player SentioftheHoukai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Solitude in Sohr Khai. Hraesvelgr, shield me from these Scions.
    Posts
    445
    Character
    Nyx Deorum
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 64
    Power levels are bullsh*t.
    (5)
    Last edited by SentioftheHoukai; 09-07-2022 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Doman Shinobi were here, I'm telling you Viceroy!

  8. #8
    Player
    Dikatis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    236
    Character
    Lleu Macnia
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Aside from the tongue-in-cheek Doylist explanation of "as strong as the writer needs them to be", WoL is not Superman, but they're very, very strong by mortal standards. We see this in "In From the Cold" where WoL struggles to take down magitek weaponry they would've plowed through in their own body. The Buduga consider WoL as strong as a hundred of their finest warriors, and of the elite Xaela warriors who participate in the Naadam, only Sadu and Magnai are able to handle WoL in a 1-on-1 for any prolonged period of time.

    WoL goes from being fatally wounded by Lahabrea at the Praetorium and needing Hydaelyn's direct intervention to survive to beating the snot out of Lahabrea and Igeyorhm at the Singularity Reactor. They also have more than enough steam left over to beat the fear of Hydaelyn into Thordan and the Heavens' Ward despite them empowering themselves with Nidhogg's eyes, the aether of the Warring Triad, and Lahabrea's leftover aether. Zenos, the nigh-invincible legatus who can single-handedly wipe out an entire squad of elite Doman samurai with one strike, considers WoL his one and only equal by the end of Stormblood. By the end of Shadowbringers, Zenos reiterates this opinion while casually batting aside Estinien and Gaius, who are themselves two of the greatest and most renowned combatants in the world. The Company of Heroes, who are all elite soldiers of fortune and heroes in their own right, all defer to the Warrior in the Melee DPS Role Quests. Fran, a major leader of the Dalmascan Resistance, says she would not wish the Warrior's wrath on her worst enemy, and the Bozjan Resistance says that WoL's herculean feats of heroism would be written off as fiction were it not for the many eyewitnesses of their exploits on the battlefield.

    That said, the devs more or less say that WoL ALWAYS has backup with them regardless of how improbable it is (see fights like Ravana, the Knights of the Round, Tsukuyomi, and Innocence). So they're not soloing their fights. But for all the mocking, "Haha, do you really think you can solo a primal?" that the English localization does, Arenvald admits that he doesn't come close to WoL's fighting capabiltiy. In all likelihood, WoL could've beaten this hastily summoned Sri Lakshmi on their own were it not for the hostage situation. At Ala Mhigo they're leading an elite strike force into the palace, so they're not facing Zenos alone and later take on Shinryu with seven people for backup. And in every major fight since the SoS, WoL has backup with them or calls it in via Azem stone. The nature of dynamis also means WoL isn't showing the peak of their power at all times and only taps into their maximum potential during a truly desperate and/or emotionally charged fight (Ysayle also mentions this after their fight with Ravana, that this is the first time she's seen their full power since her duel with them at Akh Afah Ampitheatre).

    So, in short, WoL would utterly clobber anything short of an elite veteran of the battlefield with little effort. But they're not invincible and can be shot dead with a gun even though they've caught a sword the size of an office building and deflected the blow (as confirmed in Stormblood Hildibrand quests). There are people who can keep up with and seriously challenge them but WoL will usually come out on top through crafty planning, pragmatism (bringing more people to a fight, exploiting a weakness with gizmos like the Omega Jammer), or shonen hero gumption.
    (7)
    Last edited by Dikatis; 09-07-2022 at 12:34 PM.

  9. #9
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
    Posts
    2,895
    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    The way I see the WoL, and it's something that generally carries looking at other evidence, is that at the point of Shadowbringers and Endwalker they're at the top of their particular style of combat (whatever that is), but not to a degree where it's beyond what your regular person can do. In superhero comparisons, we're not Superman, but we're probably Green Arrow.

    That doesn't mean the WoL doesn't have to try--just because you can kick a tiger's ass doesn't mean you can let your guard down--and it doesn't mean they don't have equals when it comes to one-on-one combat; remember that just in ShB and EW we've had fights considered near-equal 1v1s with Ran'jit, Zenos, and multiple Bozjan duels, all of which were depicted as 'normal humans at the top of their specific game' (as long as we excuse the Gabriel and Hypertuned Dabog from the duels, who are their own thing). We fudge the numbers on what's considered 'normal human', we can also factor in fights like Elidibus in both Zenos' and Ardbert's bodies where it's not really clear what extra Elidibus is bringing to the table, but also that he's not exactly breaking many rules of what we'd consider possible anyway.

    But, as Dikatis said above me and I want to really underline, the WoL has the greatest strength of all larger fights: Remembering that it doesn't have to be 1v1. To a degree it's almost not important how strong the WoL is solo, because using that as your only metric for their strength or chances of success would be like estimating the success of an entire football team solely on a single player.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player
    Dikatis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    236
    Character
    Lleu Macnia
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    In superhero comparisons, we're not Superman, but we're probably Green Arrow.
    If I were to make a comparison, WoL would be about the same as Lu Bu is in fiction. An immensely powerful fighter who can turn the tide of a fight almost single-handedly, but still mortal enough to be brought down through strategy, attrition, sheer numbers, or immense amounts of firepower.

    WoL demonstrates blatantly superhuman ability even by the standards of the setting. They're able to catch a sword the size of an office building and deflect the blow off to the side. In the Monk questline their daily training regimen includes more than ten hours of continuous practice, including fighting forms, calisthenics, and shadow boxing that has the Fist of Rhalgr collapsed in a heap on the ground from exertion. They then proceed to sprint through the craggy Gyr Abanian wilderness and proceed to single-handedly beat the Corpse Brigade into submission and don't even look winded at the end of it all. Widargelt considers them the first of all living monks of the order and they unlocked all fourteen chakra when seven alone is supposed to grant you godly strength compared to a normal man. A sidequest in Garlemald has them move rubble heavy enough to require a team of men to lift to save a girl's mother according to a nearby Maelstrom officer. The end of the Warrior questline has them crowned the greatest practitioner of the warrior art alive, a title they keep even after Dorgono proceeds to knock grown Roegadyn men clear across the Wolves' Den with a single blow. Estinien also considers WoL his superior as a combatant. Estinien is fully capable of acts of enormous destruction like destroying the cannon of Castrum Abania with a single strike or disabling a prototype version of the new series of reverse-engineered Ultima Weapons that nearly brought Eorzea to its knees.

    I'm not trying to say WoL is unstoppable or invincible or whatever, but they're very clearly exemplary among mortals and only a handful of characters can take WoL in a single fight that they're completely and utterly devoted to winning. That said, even WoL is wise enough to fear the wrath of an angry Manderville. Godbert and Julyan are clearly above every other character in the setting without question.
    (5)

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