1 week savage delay and everything that plays into it

[INymphI]

heyo since yoshida asked for feedback here are my thoughts and opinion to the 1 week savage delay covering every topic that's affected.
TL;DR -> keep the 1 week savage delay exactly like 6.2 but reduce the dps check on savage raid

market board
TL;DR -> same as ever, no noticeable changes
I can barely notice any difference on the market board prices for Abyssos compared to Asphodelos. I was expecting crafted gear plummeting into a pit, but prices kept surprisingly stable throughout the time. materia is still ridiculously overpriced, so yes, same as ever.

story time
TL;DR -> relaxing experience
before: everyone in our static kept rushing and skipping through content to reach (savage) raid and (extreme) trial
after: everyone had more than enough time to enjoy the story, cutscenes and content at their own pace

gear prep
TL;DR -> relaxing experience
before: rushing gathering nodes. crafting gear, food and pots between timed nodes. relied on other friends to help with crafting/gathering every raid-tier. bought stuff from market board for absurd amounts of gil (if time was running short)
after: more than enough time to prepare crafted set and food/pots on my own

extra tomestone gear/weapon / dps check in savage raid
TL;DR -> I feel lied to and disappointed on multiple levels, (class) balancing is in a very deep pit of failure
for the first time ever raiders are able to obtain 1 tomestone weapon in the very first week of the savage release due to the delay, tomestone weapon price changes, etc. other raid members are able to obtain (multiple) tomestone item(s)! I was able to buy the tomestone pants giving me even more options in choosing my gear, that's awesome, since the crafted gear pants have bad stat rolls for my playstyle! ("BiS")
I read an interview with yoshida which covered the question "did you make adjustments to the raid since stronger gear is accessable?" where yoshida gave an throughout answer with deep insights into their consideration. in short: "they decided to make no adjustments at all besides the 1 week delay release of savage". (here's the interview: https://www.famitsu.com/news/202208/09271375.html)
I was having concerns that the dps check would be too easy and in return mechanics were on a much higher level utterly destroying multiple statics.
on the other hand I was looking forward to that change, since statics, who failed on clearing savage week 1 due to not having the required skilllevel of their classes to clear a dps check in week 1, would have a better chance at giving it a week 1 shot.

[INymphI]

when our static finally reached the enrage of p8s doorboss, we were hitting very VERY hard at a wall. the dps check is insane, even WITH a tomestone weapon. we had multiple clean (no death, no dmgdown) runs and still failed to manage the dps check.
our first "improvement" were class changes. that is so so SO sad to type down. any standard-comp should be able to clear dps checks in week 1. with the class changes the dps check was still insanely rough, but not impossible anymore.
-> you may say "well, play better, deal more dps as your class". yup, we have room for improvement. we are not world racers. we are a solid static clearing savages week 1 for multiple years. but if even we are barely able to clear the dps check, week 2/3/4 raiders are not motivated but disencouraged.
overall to clear the p8s doorboss we had to rely on crit lucks. we have had identical (no dmgdown/death) runs clearing the doorboss on the very last gcd and we have had runs with about 10s left. it is such a disappointment if our static plays every mechanic cleanly just to hear "This is the end..."
and everything that on top of a never seen before upgraded tomestone weapon!
even popular streamers were concerned about the dps check and multiple statics relied on split runs to be able to clear the dps check week 1.

I hereby claim that:
- clearing p8s doorboss on min ilvl in standard-comp is NOT possible (crit luck to be ignored)
- adjustments were made (unlike stated!)
p4s and p8s doorboss are very identical in design. both "introduce" their mechanics on a "basic" level. after their rotation their mechanics become advanced and mixed with multiple other obstacles (stack/spread/in/out/...).
after all mechanics are resolved:
- p4s doorboss does 3 AoE casts and 2 auto attacks -> enrage
- p8s doorboss does 1 AoE cast and 2 auto attacks -> enrage
it is very likely that they removed 2 AoE casts at the end of p8s doorboss since they were afraid the dps check would be too easy with the extra tomestone gear/weapon. 2 AoE casts would add another 10-15s to the fight, making the dps check more convenient.

I ask the devs to reduce the dps check to enable a broader audience of players clearing savage raids during the first week. if players are not able to clear savage in week 1 it should be due to difficulty in mechanics, not due to a dmg check.
an overview of our spent time (estimate):
~8h progging p8s doorboss mechanics
~5h progging p8s doorboss dps check
~5h progging p8s final boss mechanics
~1h progging p8s final boss dps check

thanks.

[Raven2014]

I have a couple questions for you:

- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?
- If week one prog is enough to break a static, I think that say more about the static rather than the fight. I once was part of a hardcore static that was aiming for week 1 or 2 clear, and let's say it was toxic enough that I told myself never again.

This sound more like a constructed issue born from ego rather than an organic one.

but if even we are barely able to clear the dps check, week 2/3/4 raiders are not motivated but disencouraged.

No, not really. Personally I clear 1-3 in the first 2 weeks, with the last floor in the 3rd or 4th week and we're perfectly happy with that. Generally that's the pace my static goes at well. We're all solid players, in fact most of the member have 1 to 3 ultimate under their belt. But, regardless the skill, we simply can't invest enough time for week 1 clear. Not all players (in fact, I dare say this apply to more players than not) cant afford to take day off from work, drop everything for one week, or even play every day of the week. (My static goes for 3h/day for 3days a week, and we can't afford a single hour more).

If you and your static can, more power to you, but please don't ask stuff to be balance around you and yours when like I said, you're an extremely tiny part of the community. A very showy part maybe, but tiny regardless. Given I already see people already attempting to prog and clear the last floor in Party Finder of all places, I think the difficulty is on point.

[DixieBellOCE]

Cant speak for P8, But P5 with 3/8 members never doing savage, 1 of the tanks never having tanked before, was one of the most fun experiences i have had in a long time.

DPS check was extremely lenient, just required everyone to have a solid knowledge of mechanics and perform at a 'mediocre' level of skill to clear.

From what i have heard it's ridiculously hard for warrior and paladin to clear week 1 P8S without being hard carried by extremely good DPS (Currently 9% warrior and 3% paladin clears, with DRK 48%and GNB 40%), which is not a good sign when people are forced to swap jobs to clear.

Being week 1 its not that much of an issue, as times goes on people will outgear the DPS checks, but i can clearly see why it is disappointing for people that pushed the week 1 clears.

TLDR?
DPS checks were good early, it was all about fight knowledge and performing mechanics correctly. P8 is overtuned for week 1.

[ACE135]

To me the only thing the savage delay shows is that players are unable to control themselves. It looks like they want to be protected from their own behavior. It seems unusual to me that players activly asking SE to force delay something. Usually it's the other way around and they want all at once.

Everything the delay accomplishes was also possible before but players willingly chose to rush through the story to start raiding. It was always possible to leisurely do the story and start raiding thereafter, let it be some days or also a week later. Now people will say what is with statics where some players want to rush and some not. Well, you can adapt to one side or you can look for like-minded players, as people say. There is no difference if people just wait a week to get into savage or as now have to wait a week to get into savage. Did some people fear that other players could get ahead and have one gear piece more than them when they decide not to rush? But then there is to ask why is it your business what other people do.

[Adamantini]

Particularly?
1 I don't care about it
2 Rush will always exist. Regardless of what you do, something will be rushed by some players.

I would say more, but this guy said it all.

(...)

[Iyrnthota]

I have a couple questions for you:

- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?

On that note I'd ask, who else would you balance the fight around?
This is meant to be the hardest regular content in the game, so it makes sense to me that it is balanced around the hardcore week 1 proggers.

I guess I'm just struggling to come up with a possible alternative that you would propose.

[INymphI]

...
- Given the fact that week 1 clear is something a very small fraction (hardcore raiders) of an already small portion (general raiders) of players, why everything have to be balanced and carter around those people?
- If week one prog is enough to break a static, I think that say more about the static rather than the fight. I once was part of a hardcore static that was aiming for week 1 or 2 clear, and let's say it was toxic enough that I told myself never again.
...

- I don't say everything has to be balanced around week 1 raiders. I say the dps check of the p8s doorboss should be something that a broader range of week 1 attempts should be possible instead of making it disencouringly tight
- It did not break our static, we have had a lot of fun together. there was no toxicity between us. we were just mad at the dps check, that was almost impossible, even though we played cleanly

yeah, party finder is another good point: just create a group "only join when you got the tomestone weapon" which is possible for party finder making the dps check very easy in week 1, but not within our static since our loot is limited.

If you and your static can, more power to you, but please don't ask stuff to be balance around you and yours when like I said, you're an extremely tiny part of the community.

so you are saying that statics like ours should continued to be dps check walled in week 1 relying on crit lucks? I understand that it does not bother you since you are not affected by that change and have enough gear once you reach p8s, but why do you not want us to enjoy week 1 even more?

[INymphI]

To me the only thing the savage delay shows is that players are unable to control themselves. It looks like they want to be protected from their own behavior. It seems unusual to me that players activly asking SE to force delay something. Usually it's the other way around and they want all at once.

Everything the delay accomplishes was also possible before but players willingly chose to rush through the story to start raiding. It was always possible to leisurely do the story and start raiding thereafter, let it be some days or also a week later. Now people will say what is with statics where some players want to rush and some not. Well, you can adapt to one side or you can look for like-minded players, as people say. There is no difference if people just wait a week to get into savage or as now have to wait a week to get into savage. Did some people fear that other players could get ahead and have one gear piece more than them when they decide not to rush? But then there is to ask why is it your business what other people do.

>Everything the delay accomplishes was also possible before but players willingly chose to rush through the story to start raiding. It was always possible to leisurely do the story and start raiding thereafter, let it be some days or also a week later.
You are correct, even without the delay we could enjoy cutscenes, story,... However completing story, prepping gear, etc took at least 2 days. Week 1 is a challenging task, so taking 2 days away is making it even harder.

> There is no difference if people just wait a week to get into savage or as now have to wait a week to get into savage.
There is, see above point. Instead of pushing everything into a very limited time frame for preperation taking possible raid time from week 1 away, I can do everything (story, gear, ...) during a full week.

> Did some people fear that other players could get ahead and have one gear piece more than them when they decide not to rush?
It is not a fear of getting gear ahead (maybe for world racers?). See above points.

> But then there is to ask why is it your business what other people do.
Why are you here then?

[MrChrischan]

To me the only thing the savage delay shows is that players are unable to control themselves. It looks like they want to be protected from their own behavior. It seems unusual to me that players activly asking SE to force delay something. Usually it's the other way around and they want all at once.

Everything the delay accomplishes was also possible before but players willingly chose to rush through the story to start raiding. It was always possible to leisurely do the story and start raiding thereafter, let it be some days or also a week later. Now people will say what is with statics where some players want to rush and some not. Well, you can adapt to one side or you can look for like-minded players, as people say. There is no difference if people just wait a week to get into savage or as now have to wait a week to get into savage. Did some people fear that other players could get ahead and have one gear piece more than them when they decide not to rush? But then there is to ask why is it your business what other people do.

Dude I can't even describe how wrong this is. Given Savage wouldn't have been delayed, why would I let seven other people of my group wait because I'd like to watch cutscenes? As a week 1 raider myself I love the delay because I could craft my stuff, watch cutscenes and progress the story without any hesitation. And I know of many others who enjoyed that. How is that bad?

Of course you can always leen back and enjoy story, etc even without the delay but with clearing week 1 as our main target we never know what's gonna happen, how dps checks are going to be, yadda yadda yadda. So you rush through story and stuff to be able to raid as soon as possible. It's not even about who's gonna finish first or how you compete against other groups. It's about accomplishing our goal as group together.

To basically say no raider cares about the story in general and skips because of that und therefore it's irrelevant whether Savage gets delayed or not just shows how ignorant you are. You already said you never did Savage and never will do in the past and it shows. There's no downside with delayed Savage for you and yet you persist on it making no difference for anyone. Just complete bullshit.