RDM underperforming by the way of neglect

[Mithron]

RDM's Embolden gives DPS to other players, therefore it's support and RDM must do lower DPS than other jobs because of it for balance. There is nothing you can say/think/believe/do to change this fact.

Job difficulty should never matter in terms of DPS and game balance. All that should matter in DPS and game balance is how much support and DPS buffing the job adds to others. If MCH offers no DPS buffing and minimal support but still does less damage than a another who offers amazing DPS buffing, why would you ever pick MCH over another? I do want more difficulty and complexity in some jobs' rotations, but that should never, ever, ever be a factor in game balance and how much damage a job can do. The moment it does is the moment jobs become ostracized and unplayable because why play the EZ mode SAM selfish DPS when you can play RDM who offers both Embolden and higher DPS despite being more difficult to play? That's not game balance. That's wrong.

You do tax things on a "what if" basis, by the way. 100%, for sure, with certainty you do. The amount of wipes you can save with Verraise in standard pug PF groups is most definitely worth lowering RDM's DPS for, and is RDM's defining feature.

[Azuri]

RDM's Embolden gives DPS to other players, therefore it's support and RDM must do lower DPS than other jobs because of it for balance. There is nothing you can say/think/believe/do to change this fact.

Job difficulty should never matter in terms of DPS and game balance. All that should matter in DPS and game balance is how much support and DPS buffing the job adds to others. If MCH offers no DPS buffing and minimal support but still does less damage than a another who offers amazing DPS buffing, why would you ever pick MCH over another? I do want more difficulty and complexity in some jobs' rotations, but that should never, ever, ever be a factor in game balance and how much damage a job can do. The moment it does is the moment jobs become ostracized and unplayable because why play the EZ mode SAM selfish DPS when you can play RDM who offers both Embolden and higher DPS despite being more difficult to play? That's not game balance. That's wrong.

You do tax things on a "what if" basis, by the way. 100%, for sure, with certainty you do. The amount of wipes you can save with Verraise in standard pug PF groups is most definitely worth lowering RDM's DPS for, and is RDM's defining feature.

Imagine trying to talk about rDPS with this.

You can see SMN players from a mile away.

[FireMage]

RDM's Embolden gives DPS to other players, therefore it's support and RDM must do lower DPS than other jobs because of it for balance. There is nothing you can say/think/believe/do to change this fact.

Job difficulty should never matter in terms of DPS and game balance. All that should matter in DPS and game balance is how much support and DPS buffing the job adds to others. If MCH offers no DPS buffing and minimal support but still does less damage than a another who offers amazing DPS buffing, why would you ever pick MCH over another? I do want more difficulty and complexity in some jobs' rotations, but that should never, ever, ever be a factor in game balance and how much damage a job can do. The moment it does is the moment jobs become ostracized and unplayable because why play the EZ mode SAM selfish DPS when you can play RDM who offers both Embolden and higher DPS despite being more difficult to play? That's not game balance. That's wrong.

You do tax things on a "what if" basis, by the way. 100%, for sure, with certainty you do. The amount of wipes you can save with Verraise in standard pug PF groups is most definitely worth lowering RDM's DPS for, and is RDM's defining feature.

Embolden is still RDMs damage. It seems you need to educate yourself oh how rDPS works

Difficulty should be a factor. And no it wouldn't lead to ostracization, as things would still be close from the top to the lowest, closer than they are now. And no, what ifs shouldn't contribute; why should a RDM be punished for a deathless run? What's actually wrong is advocating the easiest DPS in the game do more damage than RDM in such instances. Yikes

[FireMage]

Imagine trying to talk about rDPS with this.

You can see SMN players from a mile away.

Not just that but Savageless

[Mithron]

Imagine trying to talk about rDPS with this.

You can see SMN players from a mile away.

SMN is actually the one job I have the least experience with. I'd like to see SMN be more mid-line in terms of DPS and utility, which they kinda' currently are. I love RDM and want to see it have higher numbers that it does currently, but remain the 3rd lowest DPS as that is its rightful place. I say this as someone who does love RDM, but it's certainly not my main.

Embolden is still RDMs damage. It seems you need to educate yourself oh how rDPS works

Difficulty should be a factor. And no it wouldn't lead to ostracization, as things would still be close from the top to the lowest, closer than they are now. And no, what ifs shouldn't contribute; why should a RDM be punished for a deathless run? What's actually wrong is advocating the easiest DPS in the game do more damage than RDM in such instances. Yikes

Embolden buffs RDM's damage, but so does a NIN's mug and DNC's Standard and Technical Finish. They just happen to buff everyone else's damage, too. Therefore, they need to do less damage than other jobs personally to compensate. BLM and SAM should do higher personal damage given they do not buff others' damage. This is game balance, and the only thing that should determine it. Don't know why you struggle to accept these basic facts.

I work full time and was busy this weekend so I haven't started this tier's savage yet. Rest assured, I always do at least the first fight of every savage tier and have since I joined the game in 3.4. Regardless, ad hominem means you've lost the debate. :^)

[FireMage]

Embolden buffs RDM's damage, but so does a NIN's mug and DNC's Standard and Technical Finish. They just happen to buff everyone else's damage, too. Therefore, they need to do less damage than other jobs personally to compensate. BLM and SAM should do higher personal damage given they do not buff others' damage. This is game balance, and the only thing that should determine it. Don't know why you struggle to accept these basic facts.

I work full time and was busy this weekend so I haven't started this tier's savage yet. Rest assured, I always do at least the first fight of every savage tier and have since I joined the game in 3.4. Regardless, ad hominem means you've lost the debate. :^)

You're still not getting that rDPS is the metric to go by. Also I've informed you what game balance would be, not my fault if you chose to ignore it. And there was no ad hominem, I didn't insult you, just made a base observation based on all the information avaliable. I don't ask a gas station clerk about brain surgery after all

[Azuri]

...Regardless, ad hominem means you've lost the debate. :^)

There can be no debate since your current level of knowledge fundamentally prevents you from presenting any kind of worthwhile argument.

I will spell it out once again. r. D. P. S. There is no point to this discussion until you learn the meaning behind the acronym.

[Urielparadox]

SMN is actually the one job I have the least experience with. I'd like to see SMN be more mid-line,... but(rdm) remain the 3rd lowest DPS as that is its rightful place

In ShB Summoner was good because to get its blm lvl dmg out of it, however it was incredibly difficult to reach those numbers. Rdm back then though had a pretty set rotation that you couldn't vary from. ShB rdm was in a good place until the 5.5 stat creep hit hard and percentages went wild, and still provided better damaged than all the phys range, and was easier than smn so you got more consistency out of it.

At the end of 6.1 all jobs in terms of rDps(ex a few like dnc) were pretty much even with everyone else under the right situations, played by the right people. drg,mnk, buffs usefulness are 100% dependent on your teammate. rdm and smn both have a strong buff, smn is just set over a longer period of time so jobs with 15 second burst windows don't benefit as much as other jobs. Lowering smn rDPS. A really good dnc can almost match rdm base DPSand be 1K+ ahead when rDPS comes. Also rdm already has a tax, in the form of it being a 100% proc based job. On near procless runs, where I even preformed better in the fight. I can watch my dps in p7s just keep falling Dramatically by almost 400 points by the end, that's literally the difference in enrage of clear, all locked behind rng the player can do nothing about. It also effects your rotation at various point in the fight and it can even effect your ability to keep uptime going.
RDM issues is its burst skill aren't even that super strong compared to others so while a mnk can avg 85k their big burst, rdm resolution and scorch hover around 25k each non crit/dir so that 50k for its big burst, and only about 70k when crited, not avged. Basically because rdm's damage is spread so evenly across its skills it's strongest stat is technically det and crit(fast and strong). Considering our 3 hit sword combo is incredibly low dmg and potency that do not belong in something called burst. Any crit on those is wasted. Then the problem with crit build also fails rdm because rdm dmg is spread so evenly, its crits on the 2 burst it has aren't even big enough to compensate. This problem was most noticeable at the end of ShB, and again now.

"Embolden buffs RDM's damage,...Therefore, they need to do less damage than other jobs personally to compensate... This is game balance, and the only thing that should determine it..

EVERY DPS JOB IN THIS GAME except for BLM, MCH, and SAM, have party buff, that buff everyone's damage. so to say rdm numbers should be dramatically lower than ninja, while nin has a stronger buff and reaper has the same buff, and they both do 1k+ higher base dps than rdm, SE even said they want everyone doing the same dmg as reaper, and rdm was already way behind that at 6.0 launch and never got a fix, smn has had lots of fixed and was ahead of them for a bit but looks like this round but them back behind. Raise should never factor into the question as its already heavily taxed on rdm, and also smn has raise aswell. So you can't say raise has to be taxed, as while ignoring this huge blatent issue/working with dnc and say dnc is fine. and say rdm has raise, and ignore smn having it, also ignoring that every raise a rdm cast, is a loss of at least 6 guage prog and damage, and drops your rdm damage consistently.

[Kuroka]

You will not be missed.

Same as Verraise...

Love you too.

No it has to stay. Theres a ton of stuff that should really already go but not that, just for the sake of balance... have fun doing alliance raids with not rdm or smn being able to ress, having endless fullwipes... If anything we need more support jobs and not "MOAR DPS!!!!!!!!"


Everyone so hellbend on numbers... its just silly...

[FireMage]

No it has to stay. Theres a ton of stuff that should really already go but not that, just for the sake of balance... have fun doing alliance raids with not rdm or smn being able to ress, having endless fullwipes...

Kicking the weak links is not only another solution but the better one in that circumstance