RDM underperforming by the way of neglect

[darcstar62]

For me RDM having rez skills is not all that important from savage content perspective, ...

Emphasis mine

This statement is why we are getting nowhere ITT - there are two different camps here. People that are running savage now are unhappy with RDM because it's not useful for early prog or for farming. For early prog, the raises aren't useful because deaths will prevent you from making the dps check. For farming, you don't need it because everyone should have the fight down and the rare deaths can be handled by a healer or SMN. The only place RDM excels in Savage is for late clearing groups (and maybe early prog just to try and see more of the fight), where their gear gives them enough cushion to survive the dps checks even if they have rez sickness.

The other group is people that play RDM for non-savage content, including EX's, particularly in PF. These fights also don't have big dps checks (and often don't even have enrages) so dying over and over isn't an issue, so the RDM's chain rez ability is great because it can save fights when people mess up or are just bad (particularly when your healers are dying over and over).

For group 1, RDM in its current form doesn't bring enough to the table, while for group 2, it's perfectly fine. I don't see any way to make both groups happy without adding some kind of new mechanic like "Rez Stance" (similar to the old cleric stance) where raising is only allowed in that stance but it penalizes your dps. (FWIW, I'm not being serious about adding this, I'm just trying to make a point that having a single job that satisfies both needs is going to be difficult.)

[Kalaam]

I don't see any way to make both groups happy without adding some kind of new mechanic like "Rez Stance" (similar to the old cleric stance) where raising is only allowed in that stance but it penalizes your dps. (FWIW, I'm not being serious about adding this, I'm just trying to make a point that having a single job that satisfies both needs is going to be difficult.)

And so the monkey's paw started curling...

[darcstar62]

And so the monkey's paw started curling...

...which is exactly why I added my disclaimer about not being serious.

[Kalaam]

...which is exactly why I added my disclaimer about not being serious.

I know, but we both know this part is disregarded by the monkey xD

[FireMage]

I did, which is how I saw many others think caster balance is fine like me lol... while the arguments against basically boiled down to people hating on Veraise crying it's not optimal for Savage speed clear. I you don't want Veraise and want a bit more dps just go player SMN instead. The WHOLE POINT of RDM is being able to chain res and offer support (shield+damage+heal), while doing decent damage IN ANY CONTENT, not just world first savage raiding. You might be playing the wrong job if you think otherwise.

What you think is irrelevant to what is. RDM is far harder than SMN, has the worst mobility of the casters, has only Barrier for actual utility; caster balance is screwed for it to not be higher than SMN (why am I repeating myself?). And no, that is not the point of RDM, it is a DPS, that is its role. You might be playing the wrong Job if you think otherwise

[jdgev]

What you think is irrelevant to what is. RDM is far harder than SMN, has the worst mobility of the casters, has only Barrier for actual utility; caster balance is screwed for it to not be higher than SMN (why am I repeating myself?). And no, that is not the point of RDM, it is a DPS, that is its role. You might be playing the wrong Job if you think otherwise

I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider Embolden+Verraise+Vercure utility, but you are certainly living the dream huh. Oh, I guess according to you... Dancers and Bards aren't support either guys, they are just DPS! And healers are just glorified 1 button dps right? ... dude. Support jobs EXIST and they are within the dps role. Paladin is also a support focused tank (although badly implemented). It's not hard to understand. You are playing a job with strong support hating on it's support, and wishing it had the damage to compete with melees. That won't happen. Red Mage is an ALL AROUND DPS, so stop trying to discredit it's support which is a major part of it's gameplay.

Also, you are literally the only one here saying RDM should be higher than SMN in damage lol... that makes 0 sense. What they need is to fix the horrible job that is SMN right now.

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

EDIT: Please go look at RDM in the other FF games before anyone claims they should remove support abilities... it's not hard.... just type "Red Mage in ff games" or something in google and voila.

[Kuroka]

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

Thank you, at least some sane voices....

[Azuri]

I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider Embolden+Verraise+Vercure utility, but you are certainly living the dream huh. Oh, I guess according to you... Dancers and Bards aren't support either guys, they are just DPS! And healers are just glorified 1 button dps right? ... dude. Support jobs EXIST and they are within the dps role. Paladin is also a support focused tank (although badly implemented). It's not hard to understand. You are playing a job with strong support hating on it's support, and wishing it had the damage to compete with melees. That won't happen. Red Mage is an ALL AROUND DPS, so stop trying to discredit it's support which is a major part of it's gameplay.

Also, you are literally the only one here saying RDM should be higher than SMN in damage lol... that makes 0 sense. What they need is to fix the horrible job that is SMN right now.

Thank god RDM is at least a job Square Enix seems to understand well and has improved upon every expansion. They just need to buff all caster dps and we good.

EDIT: Please go look at RDM in the other FF games before anyone claims they should remove support abilities... it's not hard.... just type "Red Mage in ff games" or something in google and voila.

A) Making a job complete trashcan tier within design realities of a given game for the sake of lore is asinine. Support jobs do not exist in this game anymore. "Support" is a derogatory word that describes lesser jobs that are objectively worse than non-support counterparts. Oh, but they get a worthless gimmick that has literally zero objective usefulness and only makes the clueless casual think that they are bringing something to the group.

B) "I don't understand what kind of self-respecting RDM wouldn't consider sitting below SMN an acceptable state." Well, actually, I do - the kind who has no clue how to play the job well.

C) You know what SE has done to RDM since the pretty tragic state of the job in Stormblood? Added damage spells. Who would have guessed...

D) Explain one thing to me. Sage.

[SaberMaxwell]

I did, which is how I saw many others think caster balance is fine like me lol... while the arguments against basically boiled down to people hating on Veraise crying it's not optimal for Savage speed clear. I you don't want Veraise and want a bit more dps just go player SMN instead. The WHOLE POINT of RDM is being able to chain res and offer support (shield+damage+heal), while doing decent damage IN ANY CONTENT, not just world first savage raiding. You might be playing the wrong job if you think otherwise.

I'll just quote one of the many actually sane opinions from literally page 1 this thread:

"Underperforming by what margin? Because it seems to me that quite a lot of bad job design choices are made just to sate the egos of Parsers. Like tanks being homogenized beyond belief, TA/Mug, Ast Card rng, Kaiten removal, leans into auto-crits etc. I guess what I'm saying is be careful what you wish for. I'm well aware red mage isnt the hardest hitting caster but it's very fun to play, has a nice flow, does a bit of everything. One of the few jobs in xiv that matches its original job identity (jack of all trades), and doesnt have a single piece of jank in its kit. Plus one of the few jobs that actually has carry potential due to machine gun rezzes. I find it odd that you describe it as a turret job when you spend even more time moving around in EW than you did in SHB. Acceleration procs, dual cast, swiftcast are more than enough. Hold a charge when you know you have to move for mechanics and that problem is sorted. If anything I'd say summoner is the caster that needs the most help rn. Boring asf, no room to optimise, plays like a lv50 job etc." (Lustre)

Stop trying to promote removing class identity just because you want to do melee dps like damage as a rdm lol... rdm right now is 10x better than what is was in ShB. Stop looking at damage only. You don't play rdm to be nr 1 or 2 on dps charts. Red Mage in Final Fantasy is a jack of all trades kind of job, master of none.

Personally, for the future, I want an low to medium AOE Heal, A dual stance mechanic (like PvP) in PvE that augments certain abilities depending on stance, and an extra bar or job mechanic to super enchant melee attacks or boost black/white mana generation temporarily. WAY more fun and representative of what RDM is about imo, than just... uh.... "lets remove veraise for more damage"....

Sounds like you really wish RDM was in the healer role.