Expert Recipies 6.2, Heavy Rng Isnt Difficulty, It's Annoying

[dspguy]

Yeah, same here. This is why I suggested to buff Centered condition by 5%, and also increase progress action success rate for Malleable. That won't change anything for people who blindly Rapid Syn spam. But it will be a game changer for people who make good use of conditions for Rapid Syn.

It would make Malleable too strong if the Rapid Synthesis success rate was bumped anything north of 75%.

If Rapid Synthesis does "2 units of Progress" normally at a 50% rate - it is worth 1 unit
Rapid Synthesis with Centered (75% rate) is worth 1.5 units
Rapid Synthesis with Malleable (assumed 75% rate) would do 50% more, which is 2.25 units

I think they'd have to consider scaling it back. Imagine if it was stacked with Veneration and Muscle Memory? The synth's progress would be half done 75% of the time if one of these landed. As opposed to just 50% under current mechanics.

[Buuhuu]

I don't mind the RNG too much, honestly. What I am salty about is that they keep forcing stats for those crafts instead of using "recommend" stats again and you can't even use trial synth without reaching those thresholds. But hey, at least we have the first expert craft item, which is useful.

[DrWho2010]

Would anyone be willing to share their rotation?

there is no set "rotation". you have to progress the craft really based on the conditions you're given in each step.

[NanaWiloh]

I'm getting soooooooooooooo many craft at >12500 but <13500,
I just need a place to RANT & SHOUT!!! This seems like a good place! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!! >_<


This is the worst I've had... missed by 8 quality... 8 quality!!!

This rant is approved by the "Little rant corporation of Lala Lala Eorzea"

[strawberria]

Perhaps SE can look into adding quality bonuses to Malleable and/or implementing the 'detriment' qualities suggested earlier. This entire craft is basically coinflipping rapid synthesis and then spamming for the quality section, there's not really much 'skill' involved...

[dspguy]

Perhaps SE can look into adding quality bonuses to Malleable and/or implementing the 'detriment' qualities suggested earlier. This entire craft is basically coinflipping rapid synthesis and then spamming for the quality section, there's not really much 'skill' involved...

Only if you allow it to be like that.

Imagine if we played a coinflipping game. You get 1000 points if it is heads or 0 points if it is tails. That would surely be a boring coinflipping game. But, what if we rolled a 6-sided die before that where the sides correlated to the crafting conditions:

- Normal: 1000 points 50% of the time (if it lands on heads, aka if Rapid Synthesis lands) = 500 average points
- Good: 800 points 100% of the time (Intensive Synthesis) = 800 average points
- Malleable: 1500 points 50% of the time = 750 average points
- Sturdy: 1000 points 50% of the time, but it only counts a half a turn = ~750 points
- Primed: 1000 points 50% of the time *** = 500 average points
- Centered: 1000 points 75% of the time = 750 average points

If we are forced to play this game, Primed and Normal are not very good states to play the coinflipping game.

So... don't.

Don't push progress if there's no benefit to doing so. Besides, you'd want to use Manipulation for Primed.

The idea is, only play the coinflipping game when either the coin is weighted in your favor (Centered or Sturdy, when the cost of the game is halved) or when the points for winning are in your favor (Malleable or Good if you choose Intensive Synthesis).

You can also raise the stakes of the game by using Muscle Memory and Veneration. Now it is coinflipping game where the stakes look more like this:

A 100 point bonus for just entering (Muscle Memory gives about 600 points, which is 100 more than an average Rapid Synthesis

- Normal: 2500 points with a 50% chance = 1250 average points
- Good: 2000 with a 100% chance (Intensive) = 2000 average points
- Malleable: 3000 points with a 50% chance = 1500 average points
- Sturdy: 2500 with a 50% chance (at half cost) = 1250 average points
- Centered: 2500 with a 75% chance = 1875 average points

Or the "jackpot": Malleable and Intensive Synthesis (Using Heart and Soul): 3000 average points

And the best part is... you can choose which coinflip to take (if at all). The moment I see Malleable, I commonly pop H&S and use Intensive Synthesis. With my craftsmanship, this puts me at around 3750 which is 50% of my progress right there.

[Jojoya]

Perhaps SE can look into adding quality bonuses to Malleable and/or implementing the 'detriment' qualities suggested earlier. This entire craft is basically coinflipping rapid synthesis and then spamming for the quality section, there's not really much 'skill' involved...

You might be surprised how much skill is involved. Most players would make incorrect choices and fail over and over because they're used to just running macros they looked up online. They don't entirely understand the actions they're using or have the ability to foresee a decision's potential impact on outcome.

Don't push progress if there's no benefit to doing so. Besides, you'd want to use Manipulation for Primed.

Except I don't always want to do that. If I have 3 stacks left on my current Manipulation, it makes no sense to use it because I'm giving up 3 stacks to get only 2 extra. Depending on status of progress and IQ stacks, I might want that Primed for Veneration or Innovation instead.

But you're right that it's not a simple coin-flipping game. We've got some ability to influence outcome thanks to the conditions and we want to use it to our favor.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

Perhaps SE can look into adding quality bonuses to Malleable and/or implementing the 'detriment' qualities suggested earlier. This entire craft is basically coinflipping rapid synthesis and then spamming for the quality section, there's not really much 'skill' involved...

I keep telling everyone that this is the incorrect concept. If they think Expert Recipes are "entirely RNG", they are bound to fail, because their success rate will be between 0 to 5%.
For instance, as I mentioned in one of my posts earlier, there's absolute NO WAY for anyone to max out the quality bar if they just spam touches. The only way to do it is by "leveraging".

E.g. if you spend 18 CP on Innov, and then spam Prudent Touches (100% efficiency), each of your touches will end up around 700-ish quality (let's say 726), therefore 2904 after spamming 4x under Innov (118 CP spent, and 20 durab consumed). By contrast, if you use a Precise Touch (150% efficiency) on a Good condition to substitute a Prudent, it'll be ~1034 quality x 1.5 = 1551 quality. Now if we add a Great Strides before that, then a single GS + Innov + Precise Touch combo will gain ~2722 quality (68 CP spent, 10 durab consumed). If we used a Prep Touch instead of Precise Touch, it'll be ~3600 quality (90 CP spent, 20 durab consumed). The result is much more than just 2904 quality.

Now you'd say, what's the chance that you can line up a GS, Innov and get a Good there? Well, not much. But if you don't try, you will never get it. Also, think about the flexibility you have... e.g. if you set up GS, and the popped, you can already use Precise Touch to capitalize some leveraging power. Alternatively, if you perform GS, Innov, Observe, you now have 3 steps to bait for the Good instead of just 2 steps. Now even if you fail in getting any Good, you'd be using a Focus Touch (150% efficiency), which is much better than a 100% efficiency touch. Lastly, imagine getting Primed after GS, then your Innov would gain 2 extra steps. Now you can actually perform your baiting actions TWICE within 1 Innov! Even if the Primed appears BEFORE your GS, you can capitalize it by setting up Innov first, before activating GS. You'd still gain 1 extra step of Innov in the end, which allows you to perform your baiting actions TWICE within the Innov.

With a strategy like this, one has a much higher chance of gaining extra quality comparing to someone who simply spam touches after Innovation. This is what I meant by "leveraging".

[Liam_Harper]

I finally got round to trying these properly (was burnt out after Ishgard) and I have to say (purely opinion and I don't think I'm "right" on this) it was a rather miserable experience.

I made them fine, overall success rate was well over half so about what I'd expect starting out. Easy gil. But it felt like it was too much rng and a dash of skill. Like, the formula is fairly straightforward once you figure it out, Vene/Rapid opener, Primed on Manip or Inno, good procs mostly on Precise. WN is bad. Build your quality (observe for conditions and hasty, or prudent, both work). Reach 10 IQ, go for some touch combos, Focused being strong because it condition digs.

So once you have your basic plan down, there's is little bit of skill and decision making in low durability, odd strings of conditions and such that does matter ...and a big dose of reliance or variance on Rapids and decent procs.

Grumbles aside I think Experts are a great idea, but I have a deep hatred for Rapid Synth and Hasty and Malleable is a rubbish condition after the opener. I still feel like they could tone down the rng some while still making the crafts as difficult. Having some crafts botch due to 8 failed Rapids is an illusion of difficulty.

[dspguy]

So, I actually found myself using WN sometimes if Primed popped up while I already have Manipulation active. I found my greatest success when I wound up in a situation where my IQ stacks were 9+ and I could manage a Basic/Standard/Advanced Touch combo. With a Primed WN, I could fit two of those at a cost of 30 durability and 108 CP. I don't have my calculator. That's something like 3600 quality. Tack on another 3700 from BB (without a good condition) and that pegs the goal closer to 6200.

When I figure out my strategy I work backwards from what I know can work and then try and bridge the gap with RNG that works in my favor (Centered for example).