Thank you to whoever wrote the Pandaemonium story so far [SPOILERS]

[not_ya_wify]

You know, I don't know why the time travel segment needed to be a closed loop, especially since the side story on the website implies it creates a new timeline, which would have made Endwalker as a whole more interesting and actually allow the past section to not be a foregone conclusion, and add interesting wrinkles to present Hydaelyn and Elidibus in why they would send you to the past and help you go to the past respectively

I imagine it was plotted this way because they wanted to create a strong emotional connection between the ancient peoples and the player. Seeing the general reaction to the story I believe it worked well enough, but it also tests suspension of disbelief so hard with how awkward it makes things.

That said, hopefully the final leg is *not* a foregone conclusion, and is a satisfactory conclusion that isn't just either "and they go back to the past with no memory" or "dead people need to be dead and not mess with the living".

Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

[Boblawblah]

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

Hey, you doing okay there?

[Rayne6665]

Wonder if we will get more of Pandæmonium 9th-12th circle

[Lauront]

Considering Emet-Selch mentioned that Elidibus was basically a child and was looking up to all the older convocation members, as well as him reverting back to child after WoL murders him, I was surprised to see how grown he already was. I expected him to be Unukalhai's age. (Well not age obviously but about that height)

I don't recall if he's ever mentioned as a child. The various versions for the short story use different words for youth or young adult.

Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

Couldn't agree more.

[Teraq]

Considering Emet-Selch mentioned that Elidibus was basically a child and was looking up to all the older convocation members, as well as him reverting back to child after WoL murders him, I was surprised to see how grown he already was. I expected him to be Unukalhai's age. (Well not age obviously but about that height)

Elidibus as member of the Convocation was never a child as far as we know. I honestly do not know why so many people get that impression.

Only the EN version of the short story calls him the vague word "youth". JP, FR and DE are all very clear that he is an adult young man. File this one under the ever-growing "English localisation does things" folder, eh? Emet even says his voice is exactly the same as it was back then, and Elidibus has always sounded like a grown adult.

In truth, I was a little dissapointed.
I was looking forward to seeing how Lahabrea went mad/evil, but it seems like they're going with "it was his evil twin".
Personally I'm starting to tire a little of complex villains with tragic backstories, so I was hoping for just a straight up evil dood. Perhaps Athena or Golbez will sate my desire on that front.

That said, I did enjoy the story overall and am excisted to see what happens in the next installment.

Well, we do know how he went mad: someone let the apocalypse happen because she thought the "fairness" of some spiteful misanthropic coward's test was worth upholding instead of doing the sane thing and alerting authorities by literally showing them her memories as it is now confirmed she was perfectly able to do, and then she committed planet-wide genocide on their people and erased their civilisation from history.

Oh, and then he bodyhopped a bit much, I guess. Fandaniel in Thavnair also implies it does a number to their identity, as he says that no matter how many bodies he goes through, he still can't forget who he was.

Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

It really is a perfect example of Endwalker's hypocrisy and protagonist bias. "Let history be unwritten!" only applies to the good guys. Just like we tell Ascians "the end does not justify the means!" – but for Venat it does. How about the meaning of life being the journey, not the inevitable destination, that makes it worth it? Not when you're an Ancient – then you don't deserve the journey.

I am so glad this tier of Pandaemonium finally loudly said they were just as human as anyone else.

Of course, the Bad Faith Legion has already found ways to spin Lahabrea cutting off the part of his soul corrupted by Athena as "unhealthy repression", and Elidibus commenting on how their culture that has developed around a post-scarcity society of immortal people with immense powers susceptible to be altered by their emotions as "SEE??? THEY WERE COLD AND HAD NO FEELINGS JUST LIKE HERMES, THE ONLY RELATABLE HUMAN, TOLD US". But by now I am quite convinced nothing can be done to help those that do not want to be helped.

In before the usual culplits enter the topic and try to tell you how it was bad.

That being said I enjoyed it and look forward for the conclusion of Pandaemonium.

It was always part of the plan to never post this thread into Lore even though it is offering feedback on the story. I have better to do than subjecting myself to the Lore forum.

[Jojoya]

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

I find this sort of reaction amusing considering the Ascian history of destroying all life on entire shards simply because they didn't consider it life and therefore wasn't murder.

Also curious to hear how you think the WoL could have saved Ancient society all by him/herself. By the time the problem was known, it was beyond the WoL's ability to handle solo and the Ancients couldn't interact with Dynamis.

[Teraq]

I find this sort of reaction amusing considering the Ascian history of destroying all life on entire shards simply because they didn't consider it life and therefore wasn't murder.

Also curious to hear how you think the WoL could have saved Ancient society all by him/herself. By the time the problem was known, it was beyond the WoL's ability to handle solo and the Ancients couldn't interact with Dynamis.

Again with the conflation of the innocent Ancients with the Ascians only three of them eventually became under extreme duress? They were only driven to these acts because of the situation they were put in by Venat. Which she had 100% intended, by the way, as she was literally responsible for the Unsundered's existence to close the time loop, which she knew involved 7 rejoinings by the time we would meet her. Hence, Venat shares culpability for destroying all life on entire shards – along with, of course, outright committing genocide on her own in the first place.

The poster doesn't say anything about the WoL saving Ancient society all by him/herself, because that isn't necessary. Ancients may not have been able to directly interact with Dynamis as they were, but:
1. They could literally create Dynamis-capable creatures as evidenced by Meteion. "BUT ONLY HERMES––" no. We are told Hermes is not the only person who knows about Dynamis ever. The Elpis flower exists and is there for everyone to iterate upon. Give Ancients motivation to research Dynamis, such as… oh, I don't know, ACTUALLY TELLING THEM THE DYNAMIS APOCALYPSE IS COMING!!, and there is no reason why research couldn't have been kickstarted.
2. They can't interact with Dynamis because they're too Aether dense? Then let's consider:
a. diminishing their own Aether as the forcefield within Ktisis Hyperboreia does
b. manually sundering their own Aether like Lahabrea just did – which we now know they viewed as unprecedented and highly risky, but again, when it's to counter the literal end of the world, I'm sure mavericks like Azem would try something like that if it meant saving the planet.
3. They would have had time to do all this, because with Venat telling the Convocation that the solution was reinforcing celestial aether (as we literally told her that – therefore Hermes's sole contribution was unnecessary), they could have come up with a way to do so without being taken by surprise by the Final Days and resorting to the extreme of summoning Zodiark. Given that Zodiark was able to repel Meteion's song for 12,000 years while literally dismembered, broken across 14 dimensions and in a coma, I'm thinking it couldn't have been that hard – because Dynamis is hilariously weak against Aether.

But yes. I know. "Ancients couldn't Dynamis!!!!" is the reason given by the game, straight out of Author Mouthpiece Y'shtola's mouth, confirmed by Hydaelyn. Whose justifications for not telling anyone that mattered of the Final Days in the first place is a pile-up of suppositions about how people would react – and never actual facts. Anyway, not my fault Endwalker's plot is shoddy. There's another, nearly 700 page thread about this.

[TaleraRistain]

Considering Emet-Selch mentioned that Elidibus was basically a child and was looking up to all the older convocation members, as well as him reverting back to child after WoL murders him, I was surprised to see how grown he already was. I expected him to be Unukalhai's age. (Well not age obviously but about that height)

He was never a child. He's a young man. He's short. He could be a teenager, or someone equivalent to their early 20s.

[Teraq]

He was never a child. He's a young man. He's short. He could be a teenager, or someone equivalent to their early 20s.

The Japanese use of "seinen" to describe him moreso points to early 20s.

[TaleraRistain]

The Japanese use of "seinen" to describe him moreso points to early 20s.

JP seems to be a bit more on the nose then. But even in the EN version, they use "youth" at first but then "young man" later, so nowhere even in EN does it say he's a child. Young man can be used to describe a teenager, but really never a child, so that is a place where it seems the EN localization is more vague.