Updating the Coils of Bahamut

[vetch]

Other MMOs have had raids that were just one room with a boss, too. Just in WoW, there was Onyxia's Lair, Gruul's Lair (technically two rooms, but still), the Eye of Eternity, the Obsidian Sanctum, the Vault of Archavon, and a bunch more I can't remember. We have alliance raids for more dungeon-y runs.

Even as the shortest raid in the game, Onyxia had a long hallway with trash capable of wiping you. Gruul's had an antechamber with trash capable of wiping you. Almost all FF14 raids are even shorter than these, and the few that are the same length as Onyxia have just been nominated in this thread for trimming to remove the exact parts that make it feel like you're breaking into an enemy facility rather than stepping off a tour bus.

[VerdeLuck]

It would definitely be nice to have them updated, I had to miss the story for 40 levels until I could come back at 90 to unsync them solo.
Having the option to do them while on the intended level, and not just asking someone in NN to one shot everything for you at 90 would definitely be welcome.

For the people who are against it, do you play these? how often are you going back to replay these? run them synced? queueing up in duty finder to bring newbies through the experience?
Probably not at all, these aren't run becuse they're just flat out too hard for what they are as story content and no one wants to do them. If that's the case then it'd be better to just redo the fights so they can be done in DF once again.

[Darthgummibear]

Sounds like you guys are a bit upset that the dungeons are no longer as braindead as they once were.

Considering that 1) I actually enjoy the new boss fights and 2) I've personally complained on these very forums on more than on occasion about how stupidly faceroll dungeons had become with the release of EW, you couldn't be more wrong. But if you want to just make stuff up to feed forum sycophants than have at it.

[Packetdancer]

I'm not sure why you're thinking the story would need to be transferred over to a trial rather than raid format. I would expect that the overall structure would remain: three lots of four boss fights, just like all the other raids that have come since.

Because asking them to do it as a modern raid series means—as you note—three sets of four boss fights. Right now, while Coils is 13 fights long, some of those fights are little more than tiny dungeons, lacking any actual central "boss" to fight. So not only would they be taking fights like Twintania and Nael and so on and making them more like modern fights—plus, likely, rebalancing them for what jobs have at level 50 now, because a level 50 kit now is fairly different than a level 50 kit when Coils came out—they're also having to come up with entire new fights to fill the other spaces out in the tier.

Turning it into a trial series means you can take just a handful of the 13 fights—e.g., the more memorable actual boss fights—and update them. Now the story can still be accessible to players, but you don't tie up the combat design team to make them do an entire raid series worth of content reworking.

I'm in favor of making Coils accessible to new players who want to get into that story. I'm also in favor of not tying up the combat design team with level 50 content indefinitely; that steals time away from level 90 content... which is content I also very much want.

I haven't healed them in EW, but when I last healed them (in Shadowbringers) I still had to manage MP. With so few abilities available I was healing constantly and just barely kept my MP up with Lucid Dreaming. Sometimes I had to use Energy Drain just to get some back.

When the Retro Raiders did Coils during ShB, realizing I was actually actively fishing for Freecure procs as WHM during certain fights made me feel so dirty—even if it was necessary, as literally my only oGCD heal was Benediction—that it drove me to finish the rest out as SCH instead. (The other healer was AST and was not going to budge.)

[Iscah]

Right now, while Coils is 13 fights long, some of those fights are little more than tiny dungeons, lacking any actual central "boss" to fight.

I'm pretty sure that Turn 3 is the only turn that lacks a boss. Some of the others have a mini-dungeon leading to a boss fight, but there's still a fight in the end.

[Packetdancer]

I'm pretty sure that Turn 3 is the only turn that lacks a boss. Some of the others have a mini-dungeon leading to a boss fight, but there's still a fight in the end.

Turn one, sure, Caduceus is a boss... [ insert "I GUESS?" meme image ]

Turn two is just a whole bunch of minibosses, though I guess the last ADS variant will use the abilities of the previous ones so has a bit more variety in attacks; you could count it as a boss.

Turn three, you yourself mention; it's a weird duck by any standard.

Turn 4 does not have an actual boss, as I recall; isn't it just multiple waves of adds? Even if you consider the dreadnought a "boss", there's more than one of them.

I will grant that the Second Coil and Final Coil are more easily adapted, but I feel like the Binding Coil is something of a mess; if the goal is to take Coils and update the storyline to play like more recent/modern content, if you target doing a full three-tier raid series again, I feel like it's not as simple as just "tweak the mechanics slightly, chop Turn 3 altogether, and call it good".

[ReynTime]

If you cut the Coil story from the game absolutely NOTHING is lost in terms of Alphinaud or Alisaie's character development in 3.0 onwards. The only thing you lose is knowing what she went off to do after a cutscene in 2.0's early MSQ.
Players aren't entitled to every reward and not every content with worthwhile reward needs to be casual friendly. To hell with nerfing normal Coils yet again.

By the way the duty support msq dungeon redesigns are a pile of steaming crap covered in chocolate sprinkles and chantily because the only good thing about the redesign is graphical.

[Iscah]

...

Fair point on Turn 4, but we still have Alexander 2 that is just waves of adds, and now they're going the opposite way in dungeons and we have the first "boss" of Troia.

In any case I don't think they would need to change it. The primary thing to be updated isn't the structure of the battles, but their difficulty level and accessibility.

As for the others, Caduceus and the final ADS in Turn 2 are definitely bosses in my limited experience, mainly a few early attempts to clear via DF and then a failed BLU party (not the high-efficiency version) that couldn't get through the Caduceus fight.

[Minali]

Digging this up again after Natsuko Ishikawa herself said on the "The Annotaded Endwalker" panel on Fan Fest these cutscenes and their placement in the Coils raid haunt her, but also that people really should do these quests for the story.

If you want us to be able to do them, please, I beg of you, give us another way to do them than getting carried by a level 90 person or facing super hard stuff. Natsuko and Yoshi-P were worried about this panel because of the mechanics, how the mechanics are "all over the place" but.. so what? You folks create this stuff, change whatever you feel like needs to be changed, it's your very own game.
And you don't have to yeet the old fights, just give us a story mode so to speak. You did a fine job reworking old dungeons (for the most part) and are going to be done with that soon. So why not checking other side content, starting with the ARR Normal Raid and ARR Alliance Raid?

It's especially ironic how you cannot play this without having a lvl 90 person carrying you/being level 90 or going in at synced levels for a quest which would best be played right after 2.0, when it comes to the story. And it's very unfair towards all the free trial players who cannot create a party finder and therefore can only queue for it and wait forever. Considering we possibly get a wave of new free trial players soon with the free trial getting expanded, the number of people who cannot use a party finder for the easy way (unless someone else is locking at the exact moment they are online), this would be a very good time to redo them. Please, give us a story version for this raid!

[PercibelTheren]

I wish Coils were more accessible because they offer good story and it's the only time you really get to meet Alisae before Stormblood. She's basically absent from ARR and has an incredibly minor role in HW. I was lucky enough to have a high level friend who ran me through them when it was relevant to the story, but I think a lot of sprouts either straight up miss them entirely or don't have anyone to ask. When I was new to the game, I didn't think of using PF to do unsynced content because the game didn't tell me it was an option.