Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Cilia]

True, really the only particular here is disputing the tissue-paper thin theory that the third sacrifice never involved ensouled beings, and was just putting ancient cows and chickens into a woodchipper, a theory that as of Tales Of The Dawn, has been doused in water.

Seems to me that the ancients crossed a moral event horizon as soon as they started trying to use the lives of future generations to bring back those that they had lost.

Well the thing is those chickens and cows (etc.) are also ensouled beings. To be considered "alive" something just has to be born in accordance with the laws of creation (nature) and given a soul by the planet. This was even verified before Shadowbringers by way of Krile's Echo letting her speak with beasts and Alpha starting off as a soulless familiar (for want of a better term) before he develops / is gifted a soul by the planet (letting us understand what he's trying to say via the Echo).

So still you can just go "Lol so you value cows' lives more than those of people's?" when arguing this point to ridicule and shut down the opposition to thunderous applause, even though the metaphysics of XIV make it rather more complicated than that.

[Necrotica]

The surviving Ancients were morally obligated to free the souls trapped in Zodiark. They had to save their own people.

Sacrificing new souls for that purpose is easily justifiable as they have no obligation to protect those new souls. Would be like a government killing foreigners to save its own citizens. Very basic concept.

If they wanted to go the humanitarian route they could eventually go for some kind of soul rotation. Every x number of years sacrifice new souls so the ones inside can get a break.

[RyuDragnier]

The surviving Ancients were morally obligated to free the souls trapped in Zodiark. They had to save their own people.

Sacrificing new souls for that purpose is easily justifiable as they have no obligation to protect those new souls. Would be like a government killing foreigners to save its own citizens. Very basic concept.

If they wanted to go the humanitarian route they could eventually go for some kind of soul rotation. Every x number of years sacrifice new souls so the ones inside can get a break.

They believed themselves caretakers of the planet, and must do what is best for the planet. If new life was formed by the planet itself, then shouldn't it also be taken care of instead of casually throwing it away? The second they decided that it was okay to sacrifice that life, they forsook their roles as caretakers and basically tossed their entire reason for their society's existence out the window. At that moment they lost any and all moral high ground and became something which even Azem would likely have to acknowledge, they became a threat to the star itself.

[KageTokage]

They believed themselves caretakers of the planet, and must do what is best for the planet. If new life was formed by the planet itself, then shouldn't it also be taken care of instead of casually throwing it away? The second they decided that it was okay to sacrifice that life, they forsook their roles as caretakers and basically tossed their entire reason for their society's existence out the window. At that moment they lost any and all moral high ground and became something which even Azem would likely have to acknowledge, they became a threat to the star itself.

I don't think what was intended to be a one and done deal was such a terrible thing, particularly from the perspective that they could better execute their role as caretakers if they brought back those who were trapped within Zodiark.

Now, if they had actually gone down the route Venat feared where'd they'd just use Zodiark as a fix-all for their problems and it started causing their culture to stagnate, then I'd have taken more issue with it.

[Cilia]

I don't think what was intended to be a one and done deal was such a terrible thing, particularly from the perspective that they could better execute their role as caretakers if they brought back those who were trapped within Zodiark.

Now, if they had actually gone down the route Venat feared where'd they'd just use Zodiark as a fix-all for their problems and it started causing their culture to stagnate, then I'd have taken more issue with it.

So - correct me if I'm wrong - condemning newborn souls to the same fate you're liberating your brethren from is totally fine because...?

The rationale they use isn't "We need our sacrificed kin to better do our jobs," it's "We don't want to have to deal with the pain of loss."

How many sacrifices of unwilling new souls are acceptable?

[sidurgu-12]

So - correct me if I'm wrong - condemning newborn souls to the same fate you're liberating your brethren from is totally fine because...?

The rationale they use isn't "We need our sacrificed kin to better do our jobs," it's "We don't want to have to deal with the pain of loss."

How many sacrifices of unwilling new souls are acceptable?

plus from what we saw inside zodiark things werent all hunky dory for the willing sacrifices considering everything was pitch black and jammed in like sardines.

[Kozh]

Yes I guess for the first summon the Ancients were necessary (since creation magic was still running amok) but for the second? The planet was devastated but the creation magic was back under control since Zodiark shielded the planet from Meteions influence. So either it was so bad that they needed to react on the spot or they could have taken their time without dieing and still choose to sacrifice themselves instead of others.

And the question of course is: Everything is made out of aether. If they did not need other people or beings equal to the Ancients for the exchange, why use beings with souls at all? Why not just simply have everyone give up part of their aether and exchange that? Then let them regenerate and on and on its goes. Is this a sign of their tempering? Or maybe a sign that plants and animals would not be enough?

Would these people even just come back at all? Or would this be another Lakshmi situation? We will probably never get those answers.

The world was fully dead, like how dragonstar and UT was. Not even the wind blows. How are they going to let life flourish so they can farm the aether if the world wasn't even capable of supporting life?

And no, zodiark is different than lakhsmi. We first hand see how the souls inside zodiark are safe and whole. It's a different case.

[Alleo]

The world was fully dead, like how dragonstar and UT was. Not even the wind blows. How are they going to let life flourish so they can farm the aether if the world wasn't even capable of supporting life?

And no, zodiark is different than lakhsmi. We first hand see how the souls inside zodiark are safe and whole. It's a different case.

By using their own aether? They after all are able to create quite a few things just by using their aether. So lets say the situation was so dire that they right away needed a huge amount of aether to survive. Okay fine then use yourself. But there is absolutely no reason to choose other lifeforms in the third one...they had all the time in the world. They and the planet were save again. So take a handful of Ancients, let them spent a part of their Aether and get one Ancient back for that. Rinse and repeat. Will take some time but no further sacrifices would be needed.

About Zodiark: I mean just because those souls are inside him would he give them up just like that? He is still a primal after all. What will happen if you exchange a few souls of the Ancients with souls of lifeforms that absolutely hate the Ancients because they were sacrificied to their new god? Without a heart could there be a possibilty that these hateful emotions take over and bascially end the race for good?

We will never know but I really doubt it would be so easy.

[Hayden]

lol, naw. endwalker was amazing.

[KageTokage]

They would've needed offer more details to sway me because I just can't find myself viewing the sacrifice of non-sentient life as being something so reprehensible.

We don't even know if they'd have been consigned to an identical fate, because Zodiark was trying to preserve the souls of his summoners and it was aether he needed, not souls specifically; though offering ambient aether was out of the question given the harm that would cause to the environment. They may have simply been drained then returned to the cycle like with more conventional summonings.