Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Iscah]

Claiming that killing animals in self defense or for materials is fine when we do it but heinous when an Ancient does for the same reasons is disingenuous.

Has anyone tried to make that claim?

And no, the game story does not portray Hyth using the butterflies as a terrible thing. We react in surprise rather than horror.

[EaraGrace]

Yet all the same, killing a group of people because of ideology is genocide too, probably even more despicable. Not to mention that now part of her genocide reason is also "your biology is wrong" (dynamis).

I find interesting the framing of a fact in XIVs universe as some horrific consideration and not what it is, another factor complicating the overall dilemma facing Venat and her faction. The game and supplemental materials can constantly scream all the reasons that Hydaelyn was summoned, and still people will focus solely on one or two reasons as if they were the only things that mattered.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Has anyone tried to make that claim?

And no, the game story does not portray Hyth using the butterflies as a terrible thing. We react in surprise rather than horror.

Well, that claim is nice and all. However, some on here seem to have missed the memo. Send them a summary of the board meeting?

I find interesting the framing of a fact in XIVs universe as some horrific consideration and not what it is, another factor complicating the overall dilemma facing Venat and her faction. The game and supplemental materials can constantly scream all the reasons that Hydaelyn was summoned, and still people will focus solely on one or two reasons as if they were the only things that mattered.

scoffs

Okay, Cleretic. You wanna know what I find interesting? That when Emet-Selch commits genocide, he gets called an all too recognizable and human dictatorial racist jackass who saw all others as lesser versions of himself. When Venat does the same damn thing (the Q&A, the post-Endwalker content, the recent Tales short story all prove this through extensive evidence), it's an "unquantifiable act of a Supreme deity whose actions I could not possibly comprehend as they are on a cosmic scale". Or any of many, many choice examples of methods of handwaving, attempting to obfuscate and/or distort the truth of what she's done, or even outright excuse it. That's what I find interesting. Venat didn't "agonize over the decision", she didn't "weigh her choices heavily and repeatedly for multiple extensive periods of time" no she jumped from Point A to Point B and told nobody the specifics of what she planned to do, and what it would entail of even what led to it coming to pass. Once again, many things but the recent short story especially prove this. She had one line of self-aggrandizement in game and frankly that shite means absolutely nothing in the face of what she'd done and what she refuse to suffer in the face of the people she claimed to love. A piteous defense, for an equally piteous person.

Next time one of y'all wants to pull the "yes, but have you admitted what the Ascians did was genocide today?" card, you may wish to recall this conversation and how it went down. You cannot make any such demands of people, if you refuse to offer the same courtesy. Think on that for a moment, if you can.

[Thenightvortex]

I find interesting the framing of a fact in XIVs universe as some horrific consideration and not what it is, another factor complicating the overall dilemma facing Venat and her faction. The game and supplemental materials can constantly scream all the reasons that Hydaelyn was summoned, and still people will focus solely on one or two reasons as if they were the only things that mattered.

She might have all the reasons she wants, still genocide and mass murder. How is it different from what the ascians did?

[DPZ2]

There's no reason why the souls could not be exchanged, nor why Zodiark would have an issue with trading an Ancient soul for aether equivalent of said soul. Zodiark was made with the purpose of saving the ancients, betraying them and refusing to hand over the souls would be betraying his purpose for existence.

And the source from this dearly held belief is ... what? A gut feeling? The story line as I've seen it does not allow for any such assumptions about Zodiark.

Be specific in your quotes/references where this was all explicitly laid out as a contract between the Ancients and Zodiark.


As an aside, if there was always an understanding that Zodiark would return the souls of those who sacrificed themselves, so that they could be rebuilt whole, at the cost of any or all of the new life created through the process, what does that say about the morality of the sacrifice of the Ancients to preserve their planet and the remaining population? (I wanted to say "nobility" but having and using a "Get Out of Jail for Free" card at hand does not make for a noble sacrifice, or any sacrifice at all).

[PawPaw]

Has anyone tried to make that claim?

And no, the game story does not portray Hyth using the butterflies as a terrible thing. We react in surprise rather than horror.

Yes, many times. Have you not seen them? The person I was originally replying to also bemoaned the Ancients' callous disregard of life and those two scenarios (as well as claiming that if they decided to end their own lives when they felt it was time, then they obviously were scornful of life) are the main arguments I have seen being thrown around since December 2021.

And your interpretation of our intended reaction is your own and that's fine. Yoshida's intention was that we come away from Elpis feeling that the Ancients were "other" and "scary" and I feel they had us react this way for that reason. This was easily one of the lesser acts of magic my character has seen up until this point and they would not care about asking someone's permission to kill their butterfly, so the reaction was a bit unnecessary considering.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Yes, many times. Have you not seen them? The person I was originally replying to also bemoaned the Ancients' callous disregard of life and those two scenarios (as well as claiming that if they decided to end their own lives when they felt it was time, then they obviously were scornful of life) are the main arguments I have seen being thrown around since December 2021.

And your interpretation of our intended reaction is your own and that's fine. Yoshida's intention was that we come away from Elpis feeling that the Ancients were "other" and "scary" and I feel they had us react this way for a reason. This was easily one of the lesser acts of magic my character has seen up until this point and they would not care about asking someone's permission to kill their butterfly, so the reaction was a bit unnecessary considering.

#FandanielWasRight #DestroyThemDestroyThemAll

[VigilanteXII]

She might have all the reasons she wants, still genocide and mass murder. How is it different from what the ascians did?

There is one very important key difference. None of the people Venat supposedly killed* actually truly died, since rebirth is a known fact in FFXIV. So really it's more of a case of forced rebirth / collective amnesia. We ourselves are some of those "murdered" people, and last time I checked we were doing just fine.

The Ascians though? They were planning to entrap everyone's soul in Zodiark, which would have prevented their rebirth. Which is probably worse than death. And contrary to his buddies previously entrapped there these new souls wouldn't get a say in the matter.

*Also, genuine question, where was it even stated that the sundering killed anyone to begin with? For all we know the Ancients just died of natural causes due to no longer being immortal and their culture declined on its own. Which would be expected, given that they can't even get their pants on without relying on creation magic.

[Theodric]

The Sundering fits the numerous established definitions of genocide so I think there's little benefit in pretending otherwise.

[Hurlstone]

There is one very important key difference. None of the people Venat supposedly killed* actually truly died, since rebirth is a known fact in FFXIV. So really it's more of a case of forced rebirth / collective amnesia. We ourselves are some of those "murdered" people, and last time I checked we were doing just fine.

The Ascians though? They were planning to entrap everyone's soul in Zodiark, which would have prevented their rebirth. Which is probably worse than death. And contrary to his buddies previously entrapped there these new souls wouldn't get a say in the matter.

*Also, genuine question, where was it even stated that the sundering killed anyone to begin with? For all we know the Ancients just died of natural causes due to no longer being immortal and their culture declined on its own. Which would be expected, given that they can't even get their pants on without relying on creation magic.

I actually agree with that and its one of the reasons why I would side more with Venat then the Ascians. We may be shattered, but we still live. However I think an argument can be made that the Sundering did cause cultural genocide. Which would also have happened had the Rejoins occurred to, I should add. More so in fact as it would be 14 shards worth of culture and history lost to recreate one.

Also the Nier Reincarnation crossover story seems to imply the Unsundered woke up and basically saw all the souls across the star as shattered husks. It does not go into more detail then that, but I would check it out if you have not, as its very good!