How to fix Paladin

[Cabalabob]

The reason they’re just playing with potencies is because PLD is basically where they want it to be other than the damage being a little too low. I wouldn’t expect it to get any major work until the next expansion.

The only big gripe I have with PLD is that they have a very static rotation on a 60 second cycle, but the natural PLD rotation is longer than 60 seconds, so people that don’t know any better end up drifting and people that do know better have to find the optimal point to crop their rotation which makes it feel janky.

Other than that, just the usual minor gripes, shield bash is irrelevant, divine veil is just clunky at this point and doesn’t effect the user and cover should have the gauge cost removed.

That said, I am curious what they’re going to give PLD in the way of new stuff next expansion. Endwalker just upgraded existing moves, or added moves that slotted into the current PLD rotation and it basically got no new toys. But now it’s kind of run out of space to just slot more skills into it so they’re going to have to come up with something.

I suppose if they really wanted to keep PLD the same, they could add another combo step that slots in between requiscat and your next fight or flight, maybe another oGCD like req/FoF that activates a 5 step shield attack combo that isn’t effected by req or FoF. That would put PLD at exactly a 60 second rotation and save them for another expansion from having to add anything new.

[ArianeEwah]

snip

As Enkidoh said, your GLD/PLD is level 37, and it shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

1st: The current ex trial "one of many" examples? Invuln for emergencies? You certainly have no idea just how powerful Hallowed Ground is outside of casual content without any downside, maybe except its CD which you play around with your co-tank. HG and Superbolide negate any damage income which means they can tank stuff without getting any debuffs like dmg downs or vul stacks. It's invaluable in savage raids, e.g. P4s part 1 and 2 mid fight tb, O7s tethers, or practically any tb with debuffs. Also, LD and SB are anything, but "too short"; there are barely any tb timings DRK can make use of LD more than GNB, but WAR is the only exception. And even then GNB gets barely more usages of off SB than PLD off HG. I don't know what you are on about with the current ex trial when you haven't even reached EW levels... your assumption that "this carries across every encounter [...] since 6.0"/6.x is also just wrong! Where did you even get that impression?

2nd: Ofc it breaks PLD rotation! The current iteration of PLD rotation leaves out 1 stack of Sword Oath to keep a ~61s rotation on repeat... that's 1 skipped GCD. Your suggestion is to remove 2 (!) GCDs from PLD rotation plus a dot duration reduction. You will fall under 60s every circle because you can't - and do not want to - avoid SkS on your gear/melds. A dot duration reduction will lead to it falling off during your Req window, too. Study PLD first before you claim your suggestion wouldn't cause any issues.

3rd: PLD doesn't have a flexible rotation? Then what about this?

This isn't your simple 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-caster burst stuff rinse-and-repeat stuff. Compared to other jobs this is rocket-science level. E6s is another example how good PLD is designed; it's possible to keep 100% uptime with Requiescat during tornado phase (you must disengage from boss). Something unique and an adventage over any other tank!
"Any loss of uptime [...]" Well, guess what: most jobs have this "issue", mostly melee jobs. PLD at ~70+ even has the choice to use Holy Spirit should they deem it necessary, it doesn't even break combos. What do you think GNB and DRK, or any other melee (e.g. MNK) will do? Either nothing or hit their low potency ranged attacks... that's not even an argument. Your goal is too keep uptime as much as possible; if not, use your tools to your advantage. PLD has more options than any other job in that regard!

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

1st: The current ex trial "one of many" examples? Invuln for emergencies? You certainly have no idea just how powerful Hallowed Ground is outside of casual content without any downside, maybe except its CD which you play around with your co-tank. HG and Superbolide negate any damage income which means they can tank stuff without getting any debuffs like dmg downs or vul stacks. It's invaluable in savage raids, e.g. P4s part 1 and 2 mid fight tb, O7s tethers, or practically any tb with debuffs.

While I agree with almost all your points and think PLD is fine, Hallowed/Bolide's "true" immunity is quickly becoming more obsolete as time goes on; the devs have been making more mechanics simply apply debuffs even with 0 damage/invuln. taking P4s for example, invulning a botched rot pass still gives you the damage down, even with true immunity. Hallowed offers no advantage against the Phase 1 tankbuster or phase 2 double buster that the other non true immunities can't do. In fact, Holmgang has a massive advantage in both halves of P4 in being able to immunity the 1st & last tank busters in Phase 1, and both double busters in Phase 2. While I would concede Hallowed is nice for Heart Stake, a DRK can make that TB a joke without their immunity even when taking both hits with aggro manipulation, so I wouldn't exactly give that too many points in hallowed's favor.

Even in DSR, if you immunity the 2nd Heavenly heel in P5, it doesn't block the slashing resistance down with true immunity, meaning you can still get splatted by the last auto of the phase if the invuln was badly timed.

Both Zodiark & the current EX also don't care about true immunity, and will apply their 'this debuff makes autos unlivable' status to you regardless on their TB's. Fight design as a whole has been shifting to take into account cheese methods. Even the unreal trial got changed so death doesn't purge your force against might/nature debuff anymore. While any immunity is a powerful tool, Hallowed's power has been getting weaker over time compared to the other 3. Living Dead's recent buff makes it straight up stronger than Hallowed in basically every situation except extremely niche cases, and also gets a -2min recast timer which can be immensely critical to certain strats (like Holm enjoying soul tether -> HH#1 -> Cauterize -> Ahk 3 in DSR, something not possible with other immunities)

With fight design shifting to not care about true immunity and the huge amount of self heals/healer OGCDs these days to cover basically any problems associated with the other 3, Hallowed's 7min CD is quickly making it the worse immunity in terms of effectiveness. Still a strong CD, but the others are just plain better almost entirely because of their lesser CDs.

[krisatriya]

So if you look at the current Ex trial as one example (of many), every other tank can ignore the stack tank buster by invulning both. Paladin is the only tank that can't cheese mechanics with invuln, it's PLD that's unique more so than WAR. This carries across every encounter to some degree or the other since 6.0 dropped. Dragonsong Ultimate PLD is there only job that can't invuln in DRK Thordan and have it back for Cauterize, Pandemonium savage PLD is the only job that only gets one invuln for a buster in every turn, etc.

I do agree with you the real problem is the other invuls and Holmgang are also broken. IMO you should have to actually do mechanics and invuln should be for emergencies, not Holmgang every second tank mechanic. If you want tanks to actually have things to do, Holmgang should be about 5 minutes and Hallowed stay at around 7. I doubt SE will fix that though, so the only way remaining to balance the tanks is reduce Hallowed to around 5 minutes so it can cheese everything too.

Regarding adjusting no. 3, with enough potency increase it really doesn't break anything, it just means you always use 2 attonement instead of 3-2. It also means PLD players can finally aim for zero skill speed since it doesn't work on the whole casting combo (I guess an alternative for that is to make skill speed actually work on PLD like somebody else suggested). There are other adjustments that could be done instead, the casting phase could be reduced, this has the advantage of BoV fitting inside shorter party buffs like Battle Litany so in that sense it's a better option than cutting Sword Oath.

PLD definitely doesn't have the most flexible rotation at all, any loss of uptime or missed skill is devastating because the rotation is so rigid you'll miss the next party buff burst window unless you just drop skills from the rotation to press FoF exactly on time.

This is my problem playing PLD too, one missed skill and the train wreck.


This isn't your simple 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-caster burst stuff rinse-and-repeat stuff. Compared to other jobs this is rocket-science level.

exactly this is a rocket science, to much variation and all that will wrecked with single missed skill. Its like taking a math test with gun in your head, one wrong and you are F!

[eagledorf]

Exactly, it's hilarious somebody could think having a chart for the exact order of buttons you need to push for every encounter and a skill speed number for every ping means Paladin is 'flexible'.


Meanwhile, DRK and WAR don't even have boards on the Balance for discussion at all because as long as you can faceroll once a minute it doesn't matter what you do. I guess technically if you have a stroke you could accidentally overcap resources or something...

[Armandin]

Assuming that the intention is for WAR and PLD to do the lowest DMG among the tanks, then either Holmgang should have it's CD increased to decrease the likelihood to invul multiple tank mechanics, or decrease Hallowed Ground's CD to let it in invul mechanics as much as Holmgang can. This would make PLD and WAR be the more "defensive tanks".

This along with giving PLD an added defensive CD would go a long way to making it feel as tanky as the other tanks.

[Seku]

Based on the buffs Paladin had received since patch 6.0 dropped, it's clear that the developers don't really know what to do with Paladin other than increase potencies. That's nice, but doesn't really address the issue (and also makes Paladin more broken in dungeons each time).

As a long-time tank player, it's really simple what the job needs so I wanted to share my thoughts.

1. When Flight of Fight is used outside of combat, add an effect that reduces cooldown duration by 10 seconds and effect duration by 6 seconds.

Reason: Parties with a Paladin shouldn't have to wait around 20s every pull so the tank can align his rotation. This is especially annoying in Duty Finder. Please implement this change if nothing else.

2. Add a shield for self to Divine Veil.

Reason: Paladin effectively has at least 2 fewer cooldowns than every other tank because Divine Veil has no self-mitigation and Passage doesn't stack with Shelton. Because Sheltron is already very strong, a modest adjustment to Veil is more appropriate than a buff to Passage.

3. Reduce the number of stacks of Sword Oath to 2 Reduce the number of stacks of Requiescat; increase potencies and reduce DoT duration accordingly.

Reason: Paladin is the only job in the game with a rotation that doesn't fit in 2-minute burst windows. Because the casting phase is in the window, most potency increase should go to these skills (Confiteor may need to have damage fall off by after the second target to avoid excessive AoE damage.) Even with the-18s opener, the whole casting phase doesn't fit in 15 buffs so it should be condensed.

4. Reduce the cooldown on Hallowed Ground

Reason: The cooldown on HG being at least 40% longer than other invuls is no longer justified as Walking Dead now provides a substantial self-heal.

These changes are very modest and would not unreasonably buff the job (arguably, only the last suggestion is a meaningful buff at all), but would address almost all the quality of life issues with the class. They also should be quite easy to implement.

1. Think instead of adjusting FoF too much they could just fix the rotation. The flexibility that people keep talking about seems just to be making the rotation fit for particular fights and on top of that it still seems to have trouble keeping it's damage in burst windows.
2. Agreed. I'd say go a bit further and get rid of the healing requirement.
3. agreed, can go with 1 if they fix the rotation.
4. agreed. i think PLD doing less damage is a fair trade-off for 100% pure invulnerability.

To add on they should get rid of or drastically change cover and shield bash. Both have lost a majority of their utility with intervention and low blow becoming a role skill respectively and then replace this with some type of self mitigation /shielding / or instant healing.
I also think they should get rid of the autoblock on passage of arms as well as the fact it makes you sit still and instead make it into an area of damage reduction. The trade-off is that the duration could be like 5 seconds, which I believe is how long it's up for if you weave it between combos.


In short, PLD has too many "hoops" to jump through that I don't think that any other tanks really have to deal with. It needs its combo to change to at least allow for a standard combo that can fit into burst windows, "flexibility" isn't an excuse to keep it as is.

[Kallis]

Can i just add one more?

5) give PLD a cone-AoE so they can properly tank large packs of mobs.

[Absimiliard]

I just want them to fix the opener and atonement jank.

Also...

Can i just add one more?

5) give PLD a cone-AoE so they can properly tank large packs of mobs.

They not too long ago began taking away cone-shaped AoEs. You can pretty much forget about that one happening.

[Kallis]

I will never forget; they took my cone away instead of giving it to the three other tanks. Absolutely ridiculous and the exact opposite of what should have been done. I made a vow to stand up and FIGHT for all of my Blue Brothers until this problem is corrected so any post fixing a tank job is lacking, if missing this crucial fix.