Why in the world did they change Jump > Mirage Dive?

[Aco505]

You speak like slotting it in the same window as jump was some amazing trick. It was not, it's basically arbitrary how soon you use it as long as it is in a buff window. Any real flexibility comes precisely from being able to hold it for so long.

No, the flexibility comes from the ability to double weave HJ + MD when you need to do a double life or when you start an encounter/new phase with 1 eye. The case of DSR is a bit different, it's done so that you can get a 2nd eye by the end of a phase that lasts around 32 seconds. With the 1s recast, this was extremely tight to get if your ping wasn't low.

In this case you often lose the GSK, but that loss is manageable vs losing an eye, and thus having to reopen the next phase with 1 eye, which is going force a HJ + MD double weave regardless, and will delay the burst, thus not allowing you to get yet another 2nd HJ before the boss leaves if that phase's duration is also around 30+ seconds.

This creates a chain reaction in which you will always be delayed or drifted and it may or may not be fixed by downtime (since your CDs are still ticking).

How many eyes you accumulate? What do you mean? There's no drift with mirage dive, it's a proc. And what are these situations exactly, where it isn't simply a skill issue?

Sometimes 1s is enough to lose a use of HJ and thus an eye.

Another example can be found in the newest extreme trial. You must use HJ at least 1 GCD earlier than normal and not drift it by more than 1s or you'll end up drifting it for around 12s or more due to boss phasing, thus making the next parts annoying to deal with since you can get HJ back when you have to move away, or simply 'cuz having such a big difference between HJ and GSK can be problematic in order to keep life aligned with buffs. Again, a chain reaction that can't be fixed in this case because there's no more downtime and that can easily drift oGCDs out of buffs and/or make you lose a whole life window in the fight, which is catastrophic: 1700 oGCD potency not counting buffs.

Please, do point me where in the statistics there's half a blip in DRG viability when they patched in the mirage delay.

I can return you the question. When have I said anything about the job's viability? People have not started playing DRG en masse just because it got HJ + MD merged. Let's be clear, it's one of the jobs with the lowest amount of actions having to be bound in the hotbar, and HJ and MD have been separated for all of their history except for 3 months.

And no, being able to freestyle weaves without loss clearly does lower the ceiling. There's nothing to learn there. Taking a tiny loss because you slightly clip GCDs does not raise the floor though - that level of optimization has no impact at all to clearing normal content. It's not the biggest deal in the kit either way, but let's not pretend making oGCD slotting completely arbitrary isn't a form of dumbing down in the scheme of things. I just hope they don't now axe something more important for sake of button bloat, because apparently swapping around a couple weaves different from how they were used to was too hard for people.

Missing a potential eye that you could get due to clipping is not tiny loss, it's huge. Clipping in general can lead to huge losses, and it shouldn't exist on a job that has had its oGCDs' animation lock reduced precisely so that they can be double weaved.

Who said that you need to optimize to clear normal content? You can clear normal content with HJ + MD merged or not. That's beside the point.

Saying that having the ability to double weave most of our kit is dumbing it down makes no sense to me. We're a job that has a 2-min burst which requires us to do something like 8 GCDs with double weaves in every single one of them except Stardiver. The difficulty resides precisely in achieving this to perfection and putting all of those oGCDs within the 15s that Battle Litany lasts, making sure that we also get two NAS under it.

And in any case, removing the ability to double weave HJ + MD from most players unless your ping is low is, again, less flexibility. You shouldn't need to have low ping when you got to do this specific weave.

TL; DR. The HJ + MD brings flexibility and doesn't hurt anyone. The job has worked like that for all of its life except for 3 months. Button bloat concerns cannot be called in here when DRG has the least amount of actions requiring to be bound in the hotbars.

[Kahnom]

So the Dev. listened to main DRG and changed it back.
But They seems to ignore main SAM and old MNK.
They hate striking dps that much, huh.

[RyuuZero]

it's funny..
I had Mirage Dive after Jump written in a macro years before the change of 6.0
and I thought like "Hey.. I had that in a macro for years and now they made it official!?"
with that said.. I thought it looked so clunky that Jump becomes Mirage Dive, so yes, I like that they changed it back, BECAUSE: Mirage Dive is an active Button (just like Kaiten), which Jump not quite fit since you still have to commit to Jump, Mirage Dive is just an attack (which Kaiten is not!) that triggers Nastrond (btw, Geiskogul has the same cool down as Jump, so it lines up jump and thus can be performed alongside every Jump!)

I have the feeling that Mirage Dive will disappear in 7.0 so that Jump (itself) may trigger Nastrond

I was happy that I had Mirage Dive on a seperate button in 6.0 ^^ since that changed nothing for me^^

[Aco505]

I have the feeling that Mirage Dive will disappear in 7.0 so that Jump (itself) may trigger Nastrond

Many think that MD will disappear and HJ will give the eye directly.

This causes issues with Life though. In order for it to work, Jump and HJ would need to have 2 charges so that you can control when to get eyes and when to enter, and GSK would have to have no cooldown but be only activated when you get 2 eyes.

However, this would allow us to have a LotD in the opener, which has its good and not so good sides: you can have your full kit in the opener, but re-openers or openers with 2 eyes become less relevant. DRG gains a ton by starting a fight with full resources, and we'd have to be nerfed to compensate that if we could start fights with life. In a sense, it'd make us less unique, even if it "sucks" to have a weak opener.

Also, with this idea GSK's purpose would be just to enter LotD, which would force potency adjustments since it won't be used on cooldown anymore.

There's also the case about buffs. If Battle Litany still lasts 15s, it becomes hard to get two NAS under it with this process because, if my calculation is correct, you get your 2nd eye right after you use buffs in every burst window. Meaning that you'd always kind of want to do HJ > GSK in those so that the next GCD is NAS directly, whereas now the first NAS tends to be used on the GCD that comes after BL is pressed. They could easily fix it by making BL last 20s (which in turn makes bursts less strict).

Even so, having this system could still cause issues in specific encounters because changing eye management can drastically modify how the job works. We'll see what we get in the dreaded 7.0 rework I suppose, but I'm not too sure how they'll manage to deal with eyes if they remove MD's function to grant them.

[zeth07]

Button bloat concerns cannot be called in here when DRG has the least amount of actions requiring to be bound in the hotbars.

I would love to see your math on this between the different jobs.

By all means.

[Aco505]

I would love to see your math on this between the different jobs.

By all means.

Someone wrote a post about it here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

[zeth07]

Someone wrote a post about it here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

I see. Some seem skewed in terms of practicality and missing jobs, but you would also have to consider the actual button presses the jobs have to do within a given time.

Also all that aside, just because other jobs potentially have more buttons doesn't mean DRG shouldn't have the buttons cutdown where available when it actually makes sense.

I don't know if I posted it on here in a different post so I won't get too into it but the days of ARR are gone, the game in itself is more complicated and the jobs have layers built into them for their identity, so removing "needless" extra buttons isn't going to somehow hurt the jobs. The people complaining about Samurai's Kaiten are weird to me, unless they are the same people who liked spamming Dark Arts on Dark Knight back in the day.

I feel the same way about positionals which is a whole other discussion. The game isn't going to magically become boring if you have to press less "individual" buttons or not have to move 1cm to the left or right or pop True North(defeating the purpose anyway). Most action games do not have you pressing 30+ "different" buttons and people sure still seem to find them fun myself included.

The idea that Jump becoming Mirage Dive is somehow a problem, which was already addressed, just seems like the most rudimentary complaint to go back on.

The actual "problem" which is probably more philosophical is that some people DO want more complicated jobs and some others DON'T. As someone who played fighting games this is very apparent. The issue rises when people might like a design but hate how the job plays.

So when the developers make a decision to streamline jobs, some people get mad, but now that potentially lets more people enjoy the jobs based on job identity instead of some intrinsic buttons to press quota or APM. Which is basically an unsolvable problem since you can't make everyone happy.

So again going back to the point, they made a change after Endwalker presumably because of "Player Feedback", who knows, but then revert the change also because of "Player Feedback". THAT is confusing. I think the excuse given is insufficient and unaccountable given the nature of public opinion.

[Aco505]

Also all that aside, just because other jobs potentially have more buttons doesn't mean DRG shouldn't have the buttons cutdown where available when it actually makes sense.

DRG has no buttons to remove at the moment because everything has a clear purpose, and the only difference between ST and AoE is the weaponskill string employed. Depending on what they add in 7.0, this could change, but right now it's not the case.

The jobs that are bloated are mostly those that have many actions used exclusively in AoE. RPR, for instance, is ironically in this situation despite the fact that many of its actions change to others, and this'll become more apparent if they give it more actions to bind in the next expansion.

The main "issue" DRG has right now is that Battle Litany lasts 15s, which can make it tight to fit everything into buffs. This wasn't a problem in ShB precisely because it lasted 20s.

removing "needless" extra buttons isn't going to somehow hurt the jobs.

I feel the same way about positionals which is a whole other discussion.

The actual "problem" which is probably more philosophical is that some people DO want more complicated jobs and some others DON'T

Most content (including extreme trials and sometimes even savage) can be cleared without having an ideal understanding or performance of a job. Therefore, removing complexity from jobs can hurt them by denying the possibility of having a high skill ceiling. A middle ground has to be found without hurting the skill ceiling. You can lower a job's skill floor while raising the ceiling to make it appealing to different kinds of players.

Jobs are getting both their floor and ceiling lowered time and again, and that's a problem, especially when there's only one job in the game that for some reason doesn't seem to suffer from that.

Positionals also add a layer of complexity to jobs. Saying that True North "defeats the purpose" means not understanding positionals in high level content. You will miss many positionals if you just use TN indiscriminately, especially on DRG due to it being the most positional intensive job. When you play DRG, you have to greed positionals as much as you can to make sure you have TN charges for when it's impossible to do so due to boss mechanics.

So removing this layer of complexity would be a mistake unless something else was put in its place, and even then, you can miss all your positionals and still clear most content, as stated before. Not knowing how to deal with positionals doesn't really hurt casual players in any way.

when the developers make a decision to streamline jobs, some people get mad, but now that potentially lets more people enjoy the jobs based on job identity

I personally like the current SMN, but the complaints about it being a job that feels like it's playing as a level 60 or 70 one at maximum level are absolutely legit. The job does feel skeletal, even if it's good thematically. A middle ground has to be reached because, again, most content can be cleared no matter what, so making jobs more complex or interesting to master at higher levels isn't going to affect lower levels in any way.

they made a change after Endwalker presumably because of "Player Feedback", who knows, but then revert the change also because of "Player Feedback"

AFAIK, the initial change had nothing to do with player feedback. The revert did: there were complaints in the English forums, but especially way more in the Japanese ones.

[Llethander]

My only complaint is the fact that there was no mention or indication of the button separation in game.

We don't all read the patch notes. I only found out today that I had a new skill to slot onto my bars, I was crazy confused as to why I wasn't generating eyes and why HJ wasn't "properly" turning into a second skill like it had since I picked up DRG and unlocked the Eye mechanic.

[Quyn]

Button bloat concerns cannot be called in here when DRG has the least amount of actions requiring to be bound in the hotbars.

Woah. That one really surprises me. To me at lv 70+ DRG already felt like having as many, or more keys to regularly press, than nin, sam or monk.
I have had such a strong impression of this, that DRG felt like one of the busiest dps to me, due to having to spin so many different ogcds and buffs to align.

Perhaps this is because things line up more naturally on sam and nin, in neat 60sec/ 120 sec windows ?

Nastrong/ HJ/ MD every 30 secs.
Life surge every 45 secs.
lance charge every 60 secs.
another two different jumps on different cds.
Then stardiver and Wyrmwind on top of two very long combo chains.

I obviously dont main DRG but it felt somewhat disjointed to me in comparison to sam and nin, where most of my extra buttons need to be pressed in close sequence, every 60 to 120 seconds.
This in turn meant that on those classes, I need to "remind" myself less often of the spinning plates, freeing up attention for raid mechanics.
Im not very good at dividing my attention. I love the class fantasy but am too scatterbrained to properly main it.

My guess for DRG changes in store, would also be that SQ might elect to cut down on what they see as redundant ogcds.
Life surge and MD come to mind as likely choices perhaps ? perhaps also dragonfire dive ? Even Lance charge feels like a design mantra since left behind.

Whatever happens, I hope it will be in line with established DRG main wishes.