SAM is dead

[Flashy]

Sorry if I got a bit heated there, it's just that I am kind of studying the details about the Samurai Gameplay that people loved, see what made Samurai Click for so many people and see pattern in the Development of it's Gameplay, since April.
My Solution to the Button Bloat in regards of Samurai would be to roll up Tsubamegaeshi into Iaijutsu, just how Ogi Namikiri does it right now.
Though it is important to take everything into account about Samurai, since it just need One Skill removed to piss off a hundered Player^^

S'all good, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I wouldn't mind that because I remember struggling to find a good spot for Namikiri at first with my keybind setup. but it would have fit perfectly where tsubame is if iaijutsu was replaced with tsubame after being cast

[MonsutaMan]

The job design of XIV are flawed, It is not just SAM.

[RyuuZero]

You are seeing a pattern, good for you, what I'm saying is that your argument that Sam is becoming like Dragoon is false, because at first we only had Gurren anyway. Unless you are wanting to admit to say that Samurai in 4.0 was like Dragoon ?
That would be a bold stance to hold.
Senei was already button bloat at the time, since it was exactly like Gurren but Single target, and gurren got nerfed.
Shoha is what it is, a filler. Shoha 2 is a useless variant.

"My Point is that every new Resource gave the Samurai a New Skill that got Expanded upon a New Expansion to accommondate the other Situation in combat."

It's absolutely false. Existing skills got changed and nerfed to create new versions of them. Samurai changed to be like it is now, and as such reverting it back won't harm the job too badly.

okay.. let's take a Look at Guren:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 500 for the first enemy, and 25% less for all remaining enemies.

okay, let's look at Geirskogul:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 260 for the first enemy, and 30% less for all remaining enemies.

to be fair the potencies, fall off and cool down varies. but outside of that it's the same skill! The Catch is that Guren shares the cool down with Senei as Single Target alternative, a thing that the Dragoon doesn't have! You really want to take this Uniqueness Away from Samurai? to be honest, it's the thing with Shoha. Shoha II is your AoE Option to utilize in AoE Situations.. or are you one of those Players who Single Target Combo in Trash mobs?

[RyuuZero]

S'all good, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I wouldn't mind that because I remember struggling to find a good spot for Namikiri at first with my keybind setup. but it would have fit perfectly where tsubame is if iaijutsu was replaced with tsubame after being cast

Yeah it's Cool, my Main Point of it is that most Samurai came together around the 6.1 Samurai Change announcements. So I may inturn could accuse the Seigan Crowd as Clout chasers which might be mean but to be honest Third Eye still rewarded the Player.. true with Kenki and one could make the Point that the devs want Samurai Players funnel into using more Kenki.. which in my Opinion would be okay if there would be a reason for using Kenki (a.k.a.:KAITEN) but now Samurai Gameplay is just dull and braindead, no learning curve, here use your Kenki for Shinten, thanks, which is why it's important to know exactly what to demand.

[RyuuZero]

okay, to elaborate Seigan was a nice Counter Attack, which is sad that it's gone but why do so few ppl also mention Merciful Eyes? even if it was bad it was a unique selfheal!

[xAFROx]

okay.. let's take a Look at Guren:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 500 for the first enemy, and 25% less for all remaining enemies.

okay, let's look at Geirskogul:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 260 for the first enemy, and 30% less for all remaining enemies.

to be fair the potencies, fall off and cool down varies. but outside of that it's the same skill! The Catch is that Guren shares the cool down with Senei as Single Target alternative, a thing that the Dragoon doesn't have! You really want to take this Uniqueness Away from Samurai? to be honest, it's the thing with Shoha. Shoha II is your AoE Option to utilize in AoE Situations.. or are you one of those Players who Single Target Combo in Trash mobs?

I really don't get why you're so obsessed every time someone suggests clearing away the redundancy in a kit. Calm down. Back before shoha 2 existed, we would do tenka goken, shoha 1 the targeted mob, and then keep doing aoe. And in a boss fight, we would use higanbana and midare, then shoha 1 when that was up. Same goes for Guren. Yes, senei has higher potency, but that potency could just as easily be baked into Guren's first target hit before the fall-off.

There is still no choice involved, ergo, it doesn't need to exist. Yeah, it's nice, but if the idea is to make things neater, that and tsubame are the first things they should have looked at. But that isn't why kaiten was removed, so calm down.

[RyuuZero]

I really don't get why you're so obsessed every time someone suggests clearing away the redundancy in a kit. Calm down. Back before shoha 2 existed, we would do tenka goken, shoha 1 the targeted mob, and then keep doing aoe. And in a boss fight, we would use higanbana and midare, then shoha 1 when that was up. Same goes for Guren. Yes, senei has higher potency, but that potency could just as easily be baked into Guren's first target hit before the fall-off.

There is still no choice involved, ergo, it doesn't need to exist. Yeah, it's nice, but if the idea is to make things neater, that and tsubame are the first things they should have looked at. But that isn't why kaiten was removed, so calm down.

yeah but isn't clunky and stupid to use a Single Target Skill in an AoE Situation, true back then we only had Shoha 1 but now we have the AoE Alternative.
I'm not obsessed, I just care about Samurai and am able to see why those suggestion will be a change for the worse.
Everyone is talking about how Kaiten is the Identity of the Samurai, but it's not the Only thing that creates the Identity of the Samurai, it also to keep track of your surroundings, which in FFXIV Samurai Gameplay is represented with Single Target and AoE Skills that utilize the same resource. I wouldn't be as mad about suggestions to change or even get rid of Meditation Stacks, true we would lose Shoha 1 and Shoha 2 but let's face it, ppl can't even figure out why they have both skills.. meanwhile I'm happy that I now can utilze the resource (Meditation Stacks) for both Situations (Single Target and AoE)

[xAFROx]

*snip*

So do you mean to tell me that at level 80, you just never use up your Meditation stacks and overcap them during dungeon pulls?

In the event that it upgrades, it wouldn't be a single target, and then when you regain the ability to use it again in that instance, it can be used on a single target boss. It eliminates clutter without altering the flow of gameplay, nor would we lose anything from it when the choice you keep talking about is literally a situation between a and b, but they do the same thing, use the same resource. If ffxiv were designed differently, I would be trying to explain why so many people have made the same few suggestions to you. But due to the way the game is, there really is no reason for it to exist. Times where an actual choice between the two redundant skills in a given moment do not exist.

You really aren't getting the argument everyone is making. I get what you mean. I do. And having an aoe variant of a resource is fine. But literally every skill we keep getting is an aoe, and then, because we keep using it in boss fights, we're given a single target variant instead of something actually new. They share a cooldown. They cost the same. By that logic, if the need to have them both exist really matters so much, they should technically be obtained at the same level. But they aren't. That level it was obtained at, could have easily been a trait for an upgrade while we gain something actually new and unique to add to the kit, rather than "here's guren but for boss fights, and shoha but for dungeons."

They could be upgraded to have both ranges of effect and nothing would be truly lost.

And I call it an obsession because every thread, the moment anyone so much as breathes towards the idea of cleaning up the bar while maintaining all our current resources you make a huge post about how that just makes it Dragoon, which it wouldn't.

I honestly hope in the next xpac we don't get a Single variant of namikiri. But I'm about 95% sure that's what will happen because that's what they've done every xpac since. The redundancy of the kit is just annoying at times. No other job has a button that is purely situational beyond their basic aoe combo. Most other jobs have at most, 1 or 2 buttons that never get used in a good portion of content, because there is no aoe in that content. But sam has 3, and by the likelihood of your preference, it'll have 4 in another couple years.

[JakkuPM]

okay, to elaborate Seigan was a nice Counter Attack, which is sad that it's gone but why do so few ppl also mention Merciful Eyes? even if it was bad it was a unique selfheal!

i really miss when it dropped your aggro too. used it all the time in SB.

[Deithwen]

okay.. let's take a Look at Guren:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 500 for the first enemy, and 25% less for all remaining enemies.

okay, let's look at Geirskogul:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 260 for the first enemy, and 30% less for all remaining enemies.

to be fair the potencies, fall off and cool down varies. but outside of that it's the same skill! The Catch is that Guren shares the cool down with Senei as Single Target alternative, a thing that the Dragoon doesn't have! You really want to take this Uniqueness Away from Samurai? to be honest, it's the thing with Shoha. Shoha II is your AoE Option to utilize in AoE Situations.. or are you one of those Players who Single Target Combo in Trash mobs?

Can you at least make the slightest effort to actually reply to my points?
Gurren was the big Kenki spender in SB, it serverd the same purpose as Senei. It's absolutely the same, except we now have two buttons and a nerfed Gurren.
Gurren is not Geirskogul. The latter is almost always used on CD and serves a very different purpose : entering life of the dragon. Before that it was a spender that would reduce your Blood of the Dragon timer.

They could simply revert Gurren to its original state, that would not make Sam a dragoon.

Your only argument is that "it's an attack in a line", which is extremely weak.

And all this non sense to say what ? "Noo I don't like your proposed Sam changes to address the buitton bloat". Change your tune a bit, it's completely off.