SAM is dead

[RyuuZero]

Yoink~

I admit it was heated here and there but again I have no hate, there might be some angry comments written but seriously, it's nothing beyond to seek out what makes Samurai Great and did you expect me responding to your post thoroughly?^^

okay if you think that Shoha II is redundant, do it like me in Stormblood with Hagakure and take it off the hotbar, easy^^
(in my opinion Shoha II isn't redundant since Shoha I in AoE Situation suck but if you're happy with it, it's fine)

to be honest, Dragoon is a Fun Job, if I want to run a alliance roulette (I used to play NIN, since I always grinded the NIN in Alliance Dungeon first, but I can't since they also ruined Ninja due to the change to Trickattack, which kinda reduced the NIN Opener to 2 Buttons.. Fun! Spoiler:NOT), as Dragoon you just Jump arround, do your 4 tier combos that loop into the other combo, even if you fail and die as Dragoon, you can fun of it and everyone is happy. It just isn't Samurai.

True, who ever had the Idea of turning Tenka Goken into a Circle needs to be educated and the reason why I oppose the suggested changes since that bargain doesn't pay off in the long run.

well the Crap AoE situation is also caused by the lack of Kaiten^^ since Tenka is now weakAF also true that those potency boost do nothing since we were responsible (as we would be responsible by using Kaiten) xD

Kenki without Kaiten is just a Filler Attack Gate Keep BS Resource that's just there to look at, brutally stripped from it Original Purpose. Third Eye at least rewards you with Kenki, Hell! In the Endwalker Job Action Trailer I was afraid that they lock Senei behind Third Eye xDD

Yeah sorry, I just was in the mood to pick apart every sentence ya threw at me, wasn't my intention to cause trouble, just clarity and about the Dragoon thing, it's that the suggested changes make Samurai play closer to Dragoon, Dragoon doesn't have a Single Target Option for their fancy stuff, so why do you wanna take it from Samurai? They took the Skill that costs least amount of Kenki and pissed everyone of us off ^^

[RyuuZero]

Then how reverting Gurren to what it was will make Sam be like Dragoon then ?
Also it was not a question, but merely a remark. It is quite clear your stance is very bold to hold, because it's not grounded.

reverting Guren would mean to disregard the Evolution that the Samurai had up to this point, getting rid of Senei would open the floodgates of getting rid of Shoha and suddenly we have no Single Target Option to this stuff, just like the Dragoon.
my Stance is that Endwalker Launch Samurai up to 6.08 was Great, do you oppose this opinion?

[Deithwen]

reverting Guren would mean to disregard the Evolution that the Samurai had up to this point, getting rid of Senei would open the floodgates of getting rid of Shoha and suddenly we have no Single Target Option to this stuff, just like the Dragoon.
my Stance is that Endwalker Launch Samurai up to 6.08 was Great, do you oppose this opinion?

Then Samurai won't be like Dragoon. Because it never was in the first place. Adding Senei and Shoha 2 did not make it "not like Dragoon" either. Just stop with this. You can prefer how sam was in 6.08, but it's your personal opinion only (with the credentials associated). Saying "it wil lbe like Dragoon" only makes you look silly.

I would also add that 6.08 Samurai was decent, but not the best iteration we had. Still ages better than what we have now though.

[xAFROx]

5.55 was the best iteration of SAM imo. At that point, nothing had been pruned, kenki costs were varied and made sense. And tsubame wasn't at 2 charges to make everything feel odd with cooldown timings. But while I'm here, I wanna poke at some of the points made towards my comments earlier.

@RyuuZero
"prepare for disappointment."
-I already am disappointed, and I expect that to continue. Riveting point of debate.

"have you ever hit a monster you shouldn't hit in PotD/HoH Content? One Geirskogul in the wrong direction and you wipe.
For Samurai that's a bit harder, because have so much options, by just upgrading single target into AoE you automaticly get rid of that nuance, which is what I'm against in regards of Samurai."
-this is extremely niche and also impossible to even compare. PotD caps at 60. HoH caps at 70. While DRG may have a big line aoe that requires some Thought and Skill to make use of without misstepping in higher floors where that could even be a problem, SAM doesn't get either of the abilities you're complaining about us suggesting consolidating beyond guren at 70, which btw, would be exactly the same scenario as DRG would be in your hypothetical. There is no Shoha or Senei to speak of in either of those instances.

Didn't have time earlier to address that in my post before, but my work breaks are pretty short.

[Reese_Clairdale]

I already addressed the assertion of "Merge Senei into Guren = Dragoon" in your own thread Ryuu. Normally I would never advocate for the removal of skills, but out of any skill added to SAM, Senei has probably the most inelegant implementation; it actively works against SAM's kit.

1.) Guren started out as our ultimate capstone oGCD used in all situations, costing double the Kenki used for the single target or AoE oGCD skills. Made perfect sense both in terms of practical usage and aesthetics.

2.) Guren drains a resource with multiple uses, potentially locking you out of other skills. Geirskogul enables new skills in your rotation. The similarities begin and end with them being line AoEs.

3.) 5.0 release, and suddenly Guren gets relegated to dungeon trash pack duty as soon as you hit 72, losing a lot of its luster. To make matters worse, when you level sync to 70 and lose Senei, you have to swap Guren to the "big single target oGCD" slot on your hotbar to preserve your muscle memory.

4.) 6.0 release, now both Senei and Guren are made 25 Kenki to enable maximum oGCD spam since we also had to fit in multiple Kaiten during the opener. By this point, Guren has gone from "Universal oGCD Nuke" to "that thing you hit after Ikishoten when the tank has everything grouped up."

5.) Purely subjective, but Senei's animation clashes with weird sheath designs or no sheath like with the Bokuto.

I still agree that both versions of Shoha should be preserved, primarily because I don't want either animation to go to waste. However, I do understand why people want to merge these skills, and I don't see how doing so also makes it more like Dragoon. Dragonfire Dive doesn't spend any resource, and Stardiver is freely accessed any time after activating LoTD. The only similarity they share with Shoha II is being circle oGCDs.

Knowing that you use single target skills for single target and AoE skills for AoE when they share a cooldown / resource isn't a decision that requires extreme situational awareness, and having 2 separate buttons dedicated to spending the Meditation gauge is too much. It's not necessary for every skill to have its function be split every expansion. IMO a skill can feel more powerful when it's appropriate for all situations, and this feeling is enhanced further when they already have long cooldowns and are earned at the max level from their respective expansions.

Once again, my proposal here is to make them 25 Kenki spenders in addition to spending Meditation stacks, then have them temporarily replace Shinten and Kyuten when ready. Both buttons get removed while preserving both skills by integrating them into buttons with identical use cases, you get less Shinten / Kyuten spam, and now the potency is appropriate for skills that have to be built up with 3 Iaijutsu since it spends resource from 2 gauges.

my Stance is that Endwalker Launch Samurai up to 6.08 was Great, do you oppose this opinion?

I think 6.0 - 6.08 SAM was good but still needed a lot of work. At least it still felt like Samurai compared to the abomination we got in 6.1+.

[xAFROx]

Normally I would never advocate for the removal of skills, but out of any skill added to SAM, Senei has probably the most inelegant implementation; it actively works against SAM's kit.

1.) Guren started out as our ultimate capstone oGCD used in all situations, costing double the Kenki used for the single target or AoE oGCD skills. Made perfect sense both in terms of practical usage and aesthetics.

2.) Guren drains a resource with multiple uses, potentially locking you out of other skills. Geirskogul enables new skills in your rotation. The similarities begin and end with them being line AoEs.

3.) 5.0 release, and suddenly Guren gets relegated to dungeon trash pack duty as soon as you hit 72, losing a lot of its luster. To make matters worse, when you level sync to 70 and lose Senei, you have to swap Guren to the "big single target oGCD" slot on your hotbar to preserve your muscle memory.

4.) 6.0 release, now both Senei and Guren are made 25 Kenki to enable maximum oGCD spam since we also had to fit in multiple Kaiten during the opener. By this point, Guren has gone from "Universal oGCD Nuke" to "that thing you hit after Ikishoten when the tank has everything grouped up."



Knowing that you use single target skills for single target and AoE skills for AoE when they share a cooldown / resource isn't a decision that requires extreme situational awareness, and having 2 separate buttons dedicated to spending the Meditation gauge is too much. It's not necessary for every skill to have its function be split every expansion. IMO a skill can feel more powerful when it's appropriate for all situations, and this feeling is enhanced further when they already have long cooldowns and are earned at the max level from their respective expansions.

Once again, my proposal here is to make them 25 Kenki spenders in addition to spending Meditation stacks, then have them temporarily replace Shinten and Kyuten when ready. Both buttons get removed while preserving both skills by integrating them into buttons with identical use cases, you get less Shinten/Kyuten spam, and now the potency is appropriate for skills that have to be built up with 3 Iaijutsu since it spends resource from 2 gauges.

I still think meditation stacks should have a higher cap and evolve like a second iaijutsu button. That's if it was to function completely unchanged from now. Or if senei and guren replaced shinten and kyuten after ikishoten would probably be a better method of clean up if their cost is going to stay at 25 like they decided to do in 6.0

You're definitely on point with this post though, Thank You!

[Reese_Clairdale]

There's definitely multiple ways to handle it, and each one will probably require different adjustments regarding the rest of SAM, but all of these really tie into getting 6.08 back first. As SAM is right now, I can only envision further corruptions.

[Quor]

5.55 was the best iteration of SAM imo. At that point, nothing had been pruned, kenki costs were varied and made sense. And tsubame wasn't at 2 charges to make everything feel odd with cooldown timings.

Agreed.

I personally think Ogi was a good addition, as it basically added another 2 GCD's over two minutes, which wouldn't destroy SkS choice but did make finding fillers a bit smoother. Charges on Tsubame and Meikyo were something I was initially open-minded about but quickly grew to dislike. All it does is shove SAM into a 2 minute burst window and in a very awkward way to boot. The further addition of Shifu/Jinpu buffs on finishers via Meikyo now meant you lost that feel of progressive build-up and Sen opener flexibility that once gave SAM more depth. Lastly, the addition of Shoha 2 and Fuga "upgrading" to a circle aoe were just the finishing touches that made 6.0 SAM feel less "together" than 5.55 SAM was.

Has anyone here been paying attention to the dps disparity that exists between tanks for the first week of P5-8S? It's pretty bad; GNB and DRK are ahead of PLD and WAR by 400-600 dps, which is up to a 10% difference. We haven't had job balance that bad since early Stormblood. Echoing my previous comments on job design/balance/direction, it really feels like things are being phoned in more than ever now, like the job balancing team is burnt out and just going "fuck it" while they throw solutions at the wall to see what sticks. Cave Johnson would be proud, but he would also probably fire them for huffing moon dust.

[Kabooa]

Has anyone here been paying attention to the dps disparity that exists between tanks for the first week of P5-8S? It's pretty bad; GNB and DRK are ahead of PLD and WAR by 400-600 dps, which is up to a 10% difference. We haven't had job balance that bad since early Stormblood. Echoing my previous comments on job design/balance/direction, it really feels like things are being phoned in more than ever now, like the job balancing team is burnt out and just going "fuck it" while they throw solutions at the wall to see what sticks. Cave Johnson would be proud, but he would also probably fire them for huffing moon dust.

For outsiders looking in, can't really say until we see more data come in.

Looking at the tier 1 charts, a 400-600 difference falls in line to the differences we saw in both 6.0 and 6.1. Apply gear scaling upwards and extending that lead to 500-600 isn't out of reason. The difference this time around is that it actively walled some "Week 1" groups.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. That wall literally disappeared this week for those who couldn't hop it last week, and it won't exist for all the non-week 1 groups out there, outside Friday+ PFing.

[RyuuZero]

I edited this post because the daily limit is screwing me over

I like the suggestion of Ikishoten triggering Senei and Guren^^