SAM is dead

[RyuuZero]

And I call it an obsession because every thread, the moment anyone so much as breathes towards the idea of cleaning up the bar while maintaining all our current resources you make a huge post about how that just makes it Dragoon, which it wouldn't.

This is why we lost Kaiten! They cleaned up that Skill that had no Equal in order to streamline everything and no one is happy, even worse they desperately try to find any other solutions in order to bring Kaiten back, meanwhile 6.08 Samurai was just fine, but no! Senei is bullshit because it's same thing as Guren, Guren is bullshit because it's the same thing as Senei, Shoha 1 & 2 should be combined and I sit infront of Geirskogul:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 260 for the first enemy, and 30% less for all remaining enemies.
and then I look at Guren:
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a straight line before you with a potency of 500 for the first enemy, and 25% less for all remaining enemies.

and you want to tell me that it isn't the same Skill? outside of Potencies, fall off and cool down, the biggest difference of Guren is that we Samurai have is Senei as alternative for the Single Target Situation!
Something that the Dragoon doesn't have, yet something so many Players want to take away...

I honestly hope in the next xpac we don't get a Single variant of namikiri.

prepare for disappointment.

But I'm about 95% sure that's what will happen because that's what they've done every xpac since.

You see the pattern aswell, don't deny it, embrace it and hope that they bring back Kaiten!

The redundancy of the kit is just annoying at times.

It's redundant if you disregard the importance of Situations.. again, something Dragoons likely do

No other job has a button that is purely situational beyond their basic aoe combo.

That's what I love about Samurai aswell, we are prepared for both situations.

Most other jobs have at most, 1 or 2 buttons that never get used in a good portion of content, because there is no aoe in that content. But sam has 3, and by the likelihood of your preference, it'll have 4 in another couple years.

?.. No not really, I for example to not know what we get at lvl100^^ though I can think of a buffed up version of Shoha & Shoha II

(Part 3/3)

I had quite fun responding to this.. even if it's lengthy, again, no hate, I just want to make things clear^^

[Mithron]

I'm gonna' be honest, there's only a few skills in the game I actually like having multiple options for when it comes to single target or AoE, those being what belongs on tanks. So, Holy Spirit/Holy Circle, Edge/Flood of Shadow, Bloodspiller/Quietus, Fell Cleave/Decimate, and Burst Strike/Fated Circle. I don't actually like Upheaval vs. Orogeny and think they should be combined. This is a case by case basis.

I think Shoha and Shoha II should be combined. It doesn't really feel good choosing one or the other. I kind've think the same with Guren; it doesn't really feel good pressing it over Senei. It's bland. I guess it's because you unlock them at vastly different levels so you were always using the first before because it was the only option; in the case of the tanks, you unlocked these skills right next to each other so it always felt natural, usually even before level 50, except for Orogeny, which is in 80+ so that's probably why it feels bad.

But I'm not a SAM main and that's just my thoughts and feelings on it. Always pressing one button in one expansion then having to press a second strictly for AoE but never in single target doesn't feel good. Always having the option between the two once one of them is unlocked helps it feel a lot better, otherwise upgrade the skill to have AoE and damage fall off instead.

[xAFROx]

@RyuuZero
Really funny that your post shows so much anger in the way you're responding despite trying to preface it with "this is not an attack." Before you literally take every part of my commentary apart with whining. You have an opinion.. yes. We get that.

You claim our opinion for change, at least to address the various stated reasons for our kit being flattened, is flawed. But your only solutions is to add more clutter.

No, I don't 'hate' shoha. I'm saying that it and shoha 2 are REDUNDANT. There is no difference in 'choosing' one or the other. And they share a cooldown timer, meaning no matter what, both are always available at the exact same time.

I haven't touched drg since getting it to cap in ShB because it isn't my priority.

And you're right, though. Kaiten wasn't the only thing wrong with the 6.1 change. If you paid attention to literally any other thread talking about it as a whole, rather than having a seizure every time someone tries to bargain with the changes made, you'd know that.

Our aoe situation is crap because of tenka goken, but they only balance towards endgame raiding these days, right? So who cares about that. Potency boost, cool. Not even what folks were discussing before 6.2

Kenki generation and costs are nonexistent due to the addition of ikishoten and the change made to positionals. Third Eye is almost not worth bothering to weave anymore.

Is there any topic you can discuss about SAM without devolving to the attitude you've used in every thread about comparing it to drg?

[RyuuZero]

Yoink~

I admit it was heated here and there but again I have no hate, there might be some angry comments written but seriously, it's nothing beyond to seek out what makes Samurai Great and did you expect me responding to your post thoroughly?^^

okay if you think that Shoha II is redundant, do it like me in Stormblood with Hagakure and take it off the hotbar, easy^^
(in my opinion Shoha II isn't redundant since Shoha I in AoE Situation suck but if you're happy with it, it's fine)

to be honest, Dragoon is a Fun Job, if I want to run a alliance roulette (I used to play NIN, since I always grinded the NIN in Alliance Dungeon first, but I can't since they also ruined Ninja due to the change to Trickattack, which kinda reduced the NIN Opener to 2 Buttons.. Fun! Spoiler:NOT), as Dragoon you just Jump arround, do your 4 tier combos that loop into the other combo, even if you fail and die as Dragoon, you can fun of it and everyone is happy. It just isn't Samurai.

True, who ever had the Idea of turning Tenka Goken into a Circle needs to be educated and the reason why I oppose the suggested changes since that bargain doesn't pay off in the long run.

well the Crap AoE situation is also caused by the lack of Kaiten^^ since Tenka is now weakAF also true that those potency boost do nothing since we were responsible (as we would be responsible by using Kaiten) xD

Kenki without Kaiten is just a Filler Attack Gate Keep BS Resource that's just there to look at, brutally stripped from it Original Purpose. Third Eye at least rewards you with Kenki, Hell! In the Endwalker Job Action Trailer I was afraid that they lock Senei behind Third Eye xDD

Yeah sorry, I just was in the mood to pick apart every sentence ya threw at me, wasn't my intention to cause trouble, just clarity and about the Dragoon thing, it's that the suggested changes make Samurai play closer to Dragoon, Dragoon doesn't have a Single Target Option for their fancy stuff, so why do you wanna take it from Samurai? They took the Skill that costs least amount of Kenki and pissed everyone of us off ^^

[xAFROx]

5.55 was the best iteration of SAM imo. At that point, nothing had been pruned, kenki costs were varied and made sense. And tsubame wasn't at 2 charges to make everything feel odd with cooldown timings. But while I'm here, I wanna poke at some of the points made towards my comments earlier.

@RyuuZero
"prepare for disappointment."
-I already am disappointed, and I expect that to continue. Riveting point of debate.

"have you ever hit a monster you shouldn't hit in PotD/HoH Content? One Geirskogul in the wrong direction and you wipe.
For Samurai that's a bit harder, because have so much options, by just upgrading single target into AoE you automaticly get rid of that nuance, which is what I'm against in regards of Samurai."
-this is extremely niche and also impossible to even compare. PotD caps at 60. HoH caps at 70. While DRG may have a big line aoe that requires some Thought and Skill to make use of without misstepping in higher floors where that could even be a problem, SAM doesn't get either of the abilities you're complaining about us suggesting consolidating beyond guren at 70, which btw, would be exactly the same scenario as DRG would be in your hypothetical. There is no Shoha or Senei to speak of in either of those instances.

Didn't have time earlier to address that in my post before, but my work breaks are pretty short.

[Quor]

5.55 was the best iteration of SAM imo. At that point, nothing had been pruned, kenki costs were varied and made sense. And tsubame wasn't at 2 charges to make everything feel odd with cooldown timings.

Agreed.

I personally think Ogi was a good addition, as it basically added another 2 GCD's over two minutes, which wouldn't destroy SkS choice but did make finding fillers a bit smoother. Charges on Tsubame and Meikyo were something I was initially open-minded about but quickly grew to dislike. All it does is shove SAM into a 2 minute burst window and in a very awkward way to boot. The further addition of Shifu/Jinpu buffs on finishers via Meikyo now meant you lost that feel of progressive build-up and Sen opener flexibility that once gave SAM more depth. Lastly, the addition of Shoha 2 and Fuga "upgrading" to a circle aoe were just the finishing touches that made 6.0 SAM feel less "together" than 5.55 SAM was.

Has anyone here been paying attention to the dps disparity that exists between tanks for the first week of P5-8S? It's pretty bad; GNB and DRK are ahead of PLD and WAR by 400-600 dps, which is up to a 10% difference. We haven't had job balance that bad since early Stormblood. Echoing my previous comments on job design/balance/direction, it really feels like things are being phoned in more than ever now, like the job balancing team is burnt out and just going "fuck it" while they throw solutions at the wall to see what sticks. Cave Johnson would be proud, but he would also probably fire them for huffing moon dust.

[Kabooa]

Has anyone here been paying attention to the dps disparity that exists between tanks for the first week of P5-8S? It's pretty bad; GNB and DRK are ahead of PLD and WAR by 400-600 dps, which is up to a 10% difference. We haven't had job balance that bad since early Stormblood. Echoing my previous comments on job design/balance/direction, it really feels like things are being phoned in more than ever now, like the job balancing team is burnt out and just going "fuck it" while they throw solutions at the wall to see what sticks. Cave Johnson would be proud, but he would also probably fire them for huffing moon dust.

For outsiders looking in, can't really say until we see more data come in.

Looking at the tier 1 charts, a 400-600 difference falls in line to the differences we saw in both 6.0 and 6.1. Apply gear scaling upwards and extending that lead to 500-600 isn't out of reason. The difference this time around is that it actively walled some "Week 1" groups.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. That wall literally disappeared this week for those who couldn't hop it last week, and it won't exist for all the non-week 1 groups out there, outside Friday+ PFing.

[Reese_Clairdale]

I already addressed the assertion of "Merge Senei into Guren = Dragoon" in your own thread Ryuu. Normally I would never advocate for the removal of skills, but out of any skill added to SAM, Senei has probably the most inelegant implementation; it actively works against SAM's kit.

1.) Guren started out as our ultimate capstone oGCD used in all situations, costing double the Kenki used for the single target or AoE oGCD skills. Made perfect sense both in terms of practical usage and aesthetics.

2.) Guren drains a resource with multiple uses, potentially locking you out of other skills. Geirskogul enables new skills in your rotation. The similarities begin and end with them being line AoEs.

3.) 5.0 release, and suddenly Guren gets relegated to dungeon trash pack duty as soon as you hit 72, losing a lot of its luster. To make matters worse, when you level sync to 70 and lose Senei, you have to swap Guren to the "big single target oGCD" slot on your hotbar to preserve your muscle memory.

4.) 6.0 release, now both Senei and Guren are made 25 Kenki to enable maximum oGCD spam since we also had to fit in multiple Kaiten during the opener. By this point, Guren has gone from "Universal oGCD Nuke" to "that thing you hit after Ikishoten when the tank has everything grouped up."

5.) Purely subjective, but Senei's animation clashes with weird sheath designs or no sheath like with the Bokuto.

I still agree that both versions of Shoha should be preserved, primarily because I don't want either animation to go to waste. However, I do understand why people want to merge these skills, and I don't see how doing so also makes it more like Dragoon. Dragonfire Dive doesn't spend any resource, and Stardiver is freely accessed any time after activating LoTD. The only similarity they share with Shoha II is being circle oGCDs.

Knowing that you use single target skills for single target and AoE skills for AoE when they share a cooldown / resource isn't a decision that requires extreme situational awareness, and having 2 separate buttons dedicated to spending the Meditation gauge is too much. It's not necessary for every skill to have its function be split every expansion. IMO a skill can feel more powerful when it's appropriate for all situations, and this feeling is enhanced further when they already have long cooldowns and are earned at the max level from their respective expansions.

Once again, my proposal here is to make them 25 Kenki spenders in addition to spending Meditation stacks, then have them temporarily replace Shinten and Kyuten when ready. Both buttons get removed while preserving both skills by integrating them into buttons with identical use cases, you get less Shinten / Kyuten spam, and now the potency is appropriate for skills that have to be built up with 3 Iaijutsu since it spends resource from 2 gauges.

my Stance is that Endwalker Launch Samurai up to 6.08 was Great, do you oppose this opinion?

I think 6.0 - 6.08 SAM was good but still needed a lot of work. At least it still felt like Samurai compared to the abomination we got in 6.1+.

[xAFROx]

Normally I would never advocate for the removal of skills, but out of any skill added to SAM, Senei has probably the most inelegant implementation; it actively works against SAM's kit.

1.) Guren started out as our ultimate capstone oGCD used in all situations, costing double the Kenki used for the single target or AoE oGCD skills. Made perfect sense both in terms of practical usage and aesthetics.

2.) Guren drains a resource with multiple uses, potentially locking you out of other skills. Geirskogul enables new skills in your rotation. The similarities begin and end with them being line AoEs.

3.) 5.0 release, and suddenly Guren gets relegated to dungeon trash pack duty as soon as you hit 72, losing a lot of its luster. To make matters worse, when you level sync to 70 and lose Senei, you have to swap Guren to the "big single target oGCD" slot on your hotbar to preserve your muscle memory.

4.) 6.0 release, now both Senei and Guren are made 25 Kenki to enable maximum oGCD spam since we also had to fit in multiple Kaiten during the opener. By this point, Guren has gone from "Universal oGCD Nuke" to "that thing you hit after Ikishoten when the tank has everything grouped up."



Knowing that you use single target skills for single target and AoE skills for AoE when they share a cooldown / resource isn't a decision that requires extreme situational awareness, and having 2 separate buttons dedicated to spending the Meditation gauge is too much. It's not necessary for every skill to have its function be split every expansion. IMO a skill can feel more powerful when it's appropriate for all situations, and this feeling is enhanced further when they already have long cooldowns and are earned at the max level from their respective expansions.

Once again, my proposal here is to make them 25 Kenki spenders in addition to spending Meditation stacks, then have them temporarily replace Shinten and Kyuten when ready. Both buttons get removed while preserving both skills by integrating them into buttons with identical use cases, you get less Shinten/Kyuten spam, and now the potency is appropriate for skills that have to be built up with 3 Iaijutsu since it spends resource from 2 gauges.

I still think meditation stacks should have a higher cap and evolve like a second iaijutsu button. That's if it was to function completely unchanged from now. Or if senei and guren replaced shinten and kyuten after ikishoten would probably be a better method of clean up if their cost is going to stay at 25 like they decided to do in 6.0

You're definitely on point with this post though, Thank You!

[RyuuZero]

I edited this post because the daily limit is screwing me over

I like the suggestion of Ikishoten triggering Senei and Guren^^