Reaper needs additional buffs.

[ChaozK]

Id actually agree with that. Some minor defensive utility for NIN, DRG and SAM would be lovely and would make it much easier to balance.

[FireMage]

A compromise, then. Give every one of those jobs a regen that can be wasted as overheal, and nerf their dps down to RPR's level. We just want a level playing field where individual player skill is the main determinant of performance, and not their preferred job aesthetic.

It already is the main determinant for one. And uh, hate to tell you but with how on demand it and it and how much it can actually heal? No. RPR is fine where it is, and should be in pace with RDM

[Lyth]

?

I argue that all dps jobs, RPR and RDM included, should be on a completely level playing field as far as rdps is concerned. Personal skill should dictate performance, not the job that you pick. If you're completely secure in your ability to perform and compete, then you would want the same.

I know that players go on about caster raises, but there's surely other ways to provide other roles with support actions that can make them feel equally valued without placing casters at a dps disadvantage.

[ZiraZ]

Always interesting to see the recurring arguments used by other dps players to keep RPR in a disadvantaged position.

You do realize that the rest of you collectively demanded Arcane Crest to be nerfed to a 1/3 of its healing potency, right? Now it's just a 50 potency regen tick. Why would you consider that to be 'defensive utility' when the likes of MNK can bring Mantra, boost all healing actions by 10%, and still reign as top of the rdps pack?

The only reason why people come in here with these absurd statements is because RPR mains have largely just been keeping quiet, while other jobs have been much more vocal (and aggressive) in their demands. It's only going to get worse from here. It's high time for that to change.

"disadvantaged"
last in melee by less than 1% is still king in a sea of non-BLM casters, WAR, PLD and MCH.
not to mention being last melee is a brand new thing, they were the top rDPS with a healer cooldown before nerf during the 1st savage EW tier, it's not like they have a history of always being last.
Anyone currently not considering playing reaper because it's the last melee is just a fotm reroller

[Lyth]

????

Most of your responses aren't relevant at all to what's being discussed. Why would you compare WAR and PLD to RPR when they don't even share a raid spot? Also, nobody runs four melee.

[FireMage]

I argue that all dps jobs, RPR and RDM included, should be on a completely level playing field as far as rdps is concerned.

And you'd be wrong

[ChaozK]

I argue that all dps jobs, RPR and RDM included, should be on a completely level playing field as far as rdps is concerned. Personal skill should dictate performance, not the job that you pick. If you're completely secure in your ability to perform and compete, then you would want the same.

You cant have raid dps be balanced if utility isnt balanced. It just doesnt work like that.

[Lyth]

People are often quite vague with their use of the word 'utility'. At the end of the day, the primary thing that teams care about is rdps, because that universally decides the outcome of fights. Offensive 'utility' is included in this, as rdps factors in the dps gain provided by the buffs that you bring to the table.

Defensive utility has situational value, especially during early progression, but is fundamentally less important. And some forms of defensive utility are just better than others. Being able to raise a party member to get more exposure to later parts of a fight can be great. A bit of extra personal or raidwide mitigation might help you survive a dicey situation. But this isn't ARR T13 prog where you're bringing double MNK for Dragon Kick INT down.

It's an apples and oranges comparison. You cannot scupper a job's dps compared to other jobs that share a raid slot simply because it happens to have something that you've classified as situational defensive 'utility'. You have to balance rdps with rdps, and defensive utility with defensive utility if that's really a problem at all. But claiming that a 50 potency regen justifies the dps disparity that currently exists is just a bad argument. And if it really balanced out, you'd be asking for the utility, not to keep the dps advantage.

[MordecaiGalidonus]

"disadvantaged"
last in melee by less than 1% is still king in a sea of non-BLM casters, WAR, PLD and MCH.
not to mention being last melee is a brand new thing, they were the top rDPS with a healer cooldown before nerf during the 1st savage EW tier, it's not like they have a history of always being last.
Anyone currently not considering playing reaper because it's the last melee is just a fotm reroller

What are you talking about? You can look at the 6.0 logs and see that they were at that point the lowest rdps as well... the only nerf they got was to arcane crest. they were the top of rdps at the "Start" because of "FotM". Everyone was playing it in the party over everything else, because it was new a shiny. it literally had like 3x the barses of every other melee at launch on 1st raid tier. if we wanna play this game then how about smn? It has the exact same 3% buff, with HoTs, and a raise, but was the highest rdps outside of blm. same for this tier "atm" highest caster rdps, outside of blm. If you look at the median average rdps from 90%-95% which is where "most" groups will end up with bis outside of optimized raid comps. rpr is between 200-600 rdps lower than all the other melees. You can deny all you want, but rdps is king during prog for clears. can you clear without it? Yes, will you have a harder time? undoubtedly so. defensive utility is nice to have during prog as well, but if you "can" survive a mechanic without it, then rdps once again is king. You can have deniers say rdps isnt as important as Hots, healing increase, etc. but why does every boss have enrage timers? its a "race" against the clock, you either do enough dmg and clear or you don't. no in between when it comes to min. Ilv. are other jobs in need of buffs as well? absolutely, I'm not denying that, but you are missing the forest for the trees. All the underperforming jobs need to be brought up with the others. I have a question for you, "can you say that without a week delay and gear over what we would have normally, that the underperforming jobs would be better, or worse than they are now with less stats compared to the top preforming jobs for prog?" If your answer is yes, then you admit its a problem on all accounts, if you say no, then you are denying the facts based on the data freely available to everyone.

[ChaozK]

People are often quite vague with their use of the word 'utility'. At the end of the day, the primary thing that teams care about is rdps, because that universally decides the outcome of fights. Offensive 'utility' is included in this, as rdps factors in the dps gain provided by the buffs that you bring to the table.

Defensive utility has situational value, especially during early progression, but is fundamentally less important. And some forms of defensive utility are just better than others. Being able to raise a party member to get more exposure to later parts of a fight can be great. A bit of extra personal or raidwide mitigation might help you survive a dicey situation. But this isn't ARR T13 prog where you're bringing double MNK for Dragon Kick INT down.

It's an apples and oranges comparison. You cannot scupper a job's dps compared to other jobs that share a raid slot simply because it happens to have something that you've classified as situational defensive 'utility'. You have to balance rdps with rdps, and defensive utility with defensive utility if that's really a problem at all. But claiming that a 50 potency regen justifies the dps disparity that currently exists is just a bad argument. And if it really balanced out, you'd be asking for the utility, not to keep the dps advantage.

You are right and the devs do clearly take the difference in utility into acount:
The difference in utility between RDM/SMN and BLM is massive so the difference in rdps gets to be massive of around 5%.
The difference in utility between RPR and the other melees is minor so the difference in rpds gets to be minor of around 1%.

On hephaistos the difference in raid dps between DRG in RPR is a measely 40 dps which is less than 0.4% (reason for that are mechanical nature which is another advantage of RPR) and the healing requirement is massive, so arcane crest gets to shine. You might not like to hear it but those numbers add up to being balanced.