Button bloat and patch balance

[CelestiCer]

Found a good link by Aco505 directing to the Dev Balancing Thread where cjbeagle compared total buttons of several jobs. Surprised, I started counting mine.



With sprint included I count " 34 " buttons I use.


I am thinking back to what I had to deal with in other MMO's compared to FFXIV...

• Juggling multiple potions, dispelling potions, food buffs, consumables
• Clicking Guild activation buffs and Teleports cause no room on hotbar
• Siege ammo, flares and other combat items for large scale combat
• Keybinding Multiple Pet skills and Mounts for different combat benefits
• Hotkeying different Gear sets and weapons to swap midcombat

FFXIV players are pampered when it comes to Button Management...

I am sure plenty don't realize how bad it was in other MMO's to complain about Button Bloat in this one, specifially if it's the argument point to support the idiotic choice of Kaiten removal for Samurai's to tackle Button Bloat.

[SilverSkyway]

What mmos had that many. Maybe classic WoW. I'm trying to think. But I can't think of a old mmo that had that many buttons other then classic WoW and even then.
DAoC maybe but I have no comment on melee as I played a pet caster. Yeah. Even as a Caster I filled 2 hotbars but slower game I could mouse click over faster pace of FF14 where I look away I'm dead.
Everquest?
Guild wars? I never played.
Swtor?
What game you have over 34 button and use EVER fight.
There also a different in have a ability for lore reason (like WoW hunter traps) and having abilities that always being used. In FF14 I'm using about every ability at some point in a fight while in WoW I use 1/3 depend on class. This on trash mobs.

Before Criterion were a thing, I would ask. Why do we need a aoe combo/3+ buttons just for aoe when aoe barely used other then a quick dungeon runs. Now that a different story.

I'm unable to get into melee in this game. Tanking stress me out and dps have to much going on. So I lean into rdps. To me rpds are not fun and I don't feel like a hero. But I play them because I feel i'm not going to mess up my rotation unlike melee where my brain and fingers ache. I understand not every job be for me but I do feel some job can combined or out right remove (without messing combo) buttons to some jobs. (*looks at Drg 6 ogcd jumps*)

[Duskane]

They really shot themselves in the foot with the button bloat excuse now people will never forget it,
its just a weird excuse because stuff like undraw and shield bash still exist.

We have mirage dive changes but not Pitch perfect for Bard which im pretty sure had same if not more people vocal about it than mirage dive.
I do think button bloat is a "issue" but not a "This is impossible to play" kind of thing its just a inconvenience or slight annoyance,
like Kaiten getting axed but Shoha two exist,
pitch perfect getting merged with wanderers instead of Battle voice and Radiant finale or refulgent procing over burst shot.
Just strange Japanese game dev philosophy i guess.

[Supersnow845]

I know this is technically the DPS forum but since this post kinda morphed into “devs explanations for job changes are either crap or non existent” can anyone explain why they changed the regen effects not generating agro beyond “YPYT gets angry healer drew agro with regen”

Of all the problems the healers have regen agro was not one of them, especially since the healers have just been that badly balanced since ShB

[VentVanitas]

I know this is technically the DPS forum but since this post kinda morphed into “devs explanations for job changes are either crap or non existent” can anyone explain why they changed the regen effects not generating agro beyond “YPYT gets angry healer drew agro with regen”

Of all the problems the healers have regen agro was not one of them, especially since the healers have just been that badly balanced since ShB

I'm gonna miss the skeletons in Orbonne immediately killing the healers because of regen aggro :'(

[fulminating]

I'm going to miss pulling with aurora because the circle shaped aoes are completely worthless, or being able to take over as tank from the completely useless paladin as a healer

[Quyn]

Ive played MMOs since DAoC and cant recall one, having as many keybinds as FFXIV, for regular combat use. That is due to the combo system + ogcd system in FFXIV.

So I would somewhat disagree with the assertion FFXIV being on the low end of button quantity.
Id say its the opposite actually.

Maybe Lotro or Everquest rivaled it ? too long ago to remember.

Im curious to hear which mmos had more keybinds for regular combat use. I would exclude Bars of buffs from this, as they happen before combat and rarely during it.

[CelestiCer]

Ive played MMOs since DAoC and cant recall one, having as many keybinds as FFXIV, for regular combat use. That is due to the combo system + ogcd system in FFXIV.

So I would somewhat disagree with the assertion FFXIV being on the low end of button

Your argument point is regular combat I assume you mean PvE, while mine is from a PvP perspective. I played plenty of PvP focused MMO's like BlackDesert, ArchAge, Aion, Revelation, Perfect World, ForsakenWorld, EtherSaga, Revelation just to name a few.

Examples of listed things you want reachable outside of your Class Abilities

• Juggling multiple potions, dispelling potions, food buffs, consumables
• Clicking Guild activation buffs and Teleports put on hotbar cause no room to hotkey
• Siege ammo, flares and other combat items for large scale combat
• Keybinding Multiple Pet skills and Mounts for different combat benefits
• Hotkeying different Gear sets and weapons to swap midcombat

Not all is essential every second, just until it is for PvP where every second counts. Both FFXIV's PvP and PvE does not have to deal with nearly any of what's listed above. That was my argument point. If you take away the PvP and only focus on PvE combat, it's different. But Hotbars don't discriminate, thus I compare MMO Bloat to MMO Bloat not PvE to PvE.

You can also equate Bloat to what's " Necessary ". Let's go back to FFXIV's PvE SAM kit. I said I have 34 buttons. Do I use all of them, all the time? constantly? No.

Example, Single target combat i.e Extreme's and Savage fights. Will I use the following nonstop?

• Mangetsu
• Oka
• Fuko
• Hissatsu: Guren
• Hissatsu: Kyuten
• Shoha II
• Kuyten
• Legsweep

No. Heck all Endwalker EX's and Savage fights thus far I don't use any. 8 buttons less


Lets ask the next question. Do most of the players really use the following in their daily fates/dungeon/msq/casual activities?

• Feint
• Meditate
• Legsweep
• Tincture
• TrueNorth
• ThirdEye
• Hagakure

Do they regard most or all essential enough to cast? from what I seen? no.

A lot of Players don't even know TrueNorth exists, god forbid they Feint ever. Nvr Legsweep an AoEing mob for a party member. I even had players ask me " Why use Third Eye? I have a healer "... Makes me wonder what other players not care to cast on other jobs... neglecting the buttons they have, not use all of it, and complain about... " Bloat".

But even if I find all of what I have essential, Kaiten included, which perfectly fits on my hotbars, I consider Samurai " Not Bloated " for what I have experienced from FFXIV vs Previous PvP MMO's on what I needed on my hotbars for essential combat.

[Theodric_Thorne]

Your argument point is regular combat I assume you mean PvE, while mine is from a PvP perspective. I played plenty of PvP focused MMO's like BlackDesert, ArchAge, Aion, Revelation, Perfect World, ForsakenWorld, EtherSaga, Revelation just to name a few.

Examples of listed things you want reachable outside of your Class Abilities

• Juggling multiple potions, dispelling potions, food buffs, consumables
• Clicking Guild activation buffs and Teleports put on hotbar cause no room to hotkey
• Siege ammo, flares and other combat items for large scale combat
• Keybinding Multiple Pet skills and Mounts for different combat benefits
• Hotkeying different Gear sets and weapons to swap midcombat

Not all is essential every second, just until it is for PvP where every second counts. Both FFXIV's PvP and PvE does not have to deal with nearly any of what's listed above. That was my argument point. If you take away the PvP and only focus on PvE combat, it's different. But Hotbars don't discriminate, thus I compare MMO Bloat to MMO Bloat not PvE to PvE.

You can also equate Bloat to what's " Necessary ". Let's go back to FFXIV's PvE SAM kit. I said I have 34 buttons. Do I use all of them, all the time? constantly? No.

Example, Single target combat i.e Extreme's and Savage fights. Will I use the following nonstop?

• Mangetsu
• Oka
• Fuko
• Hissatsu: Guren
• Hissatsu: Kyuten
• Shoha II
• Kuyten
• Legsweep

No. Heck all Endwalker EX's and Savage fights thus far I don't use any. 8 buttons less


Lets ask the next question. Do most of the players really use the following in their daily fates/dungeon/msq/casual activities?

• Feint
• Meditate
• Legsweep
• Tincture
• TrueNorth
• ThirdEye
• Hagakure

Do they regard most or all essential enough to cast? from what I seen? no.

A lot of Players don't even know TrueNorth exists, god forbid they Feint ever. Nvr Legsweep an AoEing mob for a party member. I even had players ask me " Why use Third Eye? I have a healer "... Makes me wonder what other players not care to cast on other jobs... neglecting the buttons they have, not use all of it, and complain about... " Bloat".

But even if I find all of what I have essential, Kaiten included, which perfectly fits on my hotbars, I consider Samurai " Not Bloated " for what I have experienced from FFXIV vs Previous PvP MMO's on what I needed on my hotbars for essential combat.

I'll admit to being one of those bad players who never uses Feint because I don't know when it's most useful, but True North actually feels the least awkward to use on SAM because of how it's nearly synchronized with Meikyo Shisui. I can never remember which positional ability is the flank and which is the rear, so I just stay in rear and use TN/MS together when they're off CD.

[CelestiCer]

I'll admit to being one of those bad players who never uses Feint because I don't know when it's most useful, but True North actually feels the least awkward to use on SAM because of how it's nearly synchronized with Meikyo Shisui. I can never remember which positional ability is the flank and which is the rear, so I just stay in rear and use TN/MS together when they're off CD.

The amount of times I play in regular casual content, dungeons and even extreme's where players prioritize RP macro's and Emotes to only die to the most simple mechanics cause reasons, is mindboggling... compared to what they should actually be worried more about like what buttons they should be paying attention to outside of emotes and RP macro's during PvE combat...

This is the erm... reason I find it so questionable from Square when they decided to use " Button Bloat " as an excuse to remove Kaiten. Although not limited to Kaiten, for what other abilities they removed or will remove and not limited to that excuse alone, it just stood out that badly. I had to deal with so much more in PvP focused MMO's, it felt like I had no space on my hotbar for that little thing that mattered so much in crucial moments.

Compare to that FFXIV? and we have Dungeons where Bots do all the work. I just use Enpi and have Thancred man handle it all /pet emote Y'shtola to show her who's really mommy while I Netflix. Or I read the forums on the 2nd screen where people complain about Bloat as I look back at my Scions just... auto clearing the Dungeon for me on the main screen. I for funzies " Hakaze Spam " through large portions of the MSQ's with just Hakaze because I can... it doesnt' feel like a lot of what we have that is considered bloat? is actually even essential to clear content.

So when we enjoy an ounce of skill-expression, be it Raiding or making Dungeons and Fate farming go fast, where every button will be used... only to have it be taken away cause its considered bloat to fix... practically nothing is like... and not just Kaiten btw name any skill that ever existed that was fun to use and is gone cause reasons.

What reasons exactly? who knows.