cheating onsal pallies

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I won't deny it is overpowered, but your definition of what is cheating is lacking.

All they are using is tools given to them. The fact this is breaking Onsal Hakair is not cheating, it is a clever use of tools (even if unfair / overpowered).

Cheating would be going under the map and capping the point from there. Exploiting would be figuring out a way to be quasi-invincible via bug-using (for example, become untargetable). Whether Cover could be considered the latter is something up for debate.

By proxy, no - Paladin players currently using this tactic should NOT be banned for what was their toolkit being cleverly used.

[Garten]

I won't deny it is overpowered, but your definition of what is cheating is lacking.

All they are using is tools given to them. The fact this is breaking Onsal Hakair is not cheating, it is a clever use of tools (even if unfair / overpowered).

Cheating would be going under the map and capping the point from there. Exploiting would be figuring out a way to be quasi-invincible via bug-using (for example, become untargetable). Whether Cover could be considered the latter is something up for debate.

By proxy, no - Paladin players currently using this tactic should NOT be banned for what was their toolkit being cleverly used.

Sure i can Say you are right.

BUT as you admitted this Is unfair/overpowered, read like:"imbalace issue", so Se shoul address It ASAP or close the map till further notice like they did with the rival Wing One.

or we could all Just play PLD in onsal? Wouldnt that be cool? /S

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Sure i can Say you are right.

BUT as you admitted this Is unfair/overpowered, read like:"imbalace issue", so Se shoul address It ASAP or close the map till further notice like they did with the rival Wing One.

or we could all Just play PLD in onsal? Wouldnt that be cool? /S

Yes, Cover is overpowered in Onsal Hakair for point capping, about that there is no doubt. However the problem is "how" to address it without directly nerfing the ability as that would affect the small-scale PvP mode in terms of PLD's viability, depending how far you go.

To weigh optiions:
A) Only transfer 95-99% of the damage rather than all of it. This would make the Onsal Hakair Cover strat impossible, but would also allow a hole in PLDs kit currently fighting NIN players going for their teammates (Seiton Tenchou would pass through or more funnily, Seiton Tenchou may actually kill two targets given the right conditions).

B) System change to interrupt the cast of Capturing Ovoo while covered. Putting aside the design and development for this code needed, this would likely affect Cover + Elixir since Elixir operates similarly.

C) Reducing Cover's duration to 5 seconds + adding "Cover Fatigue" on target covered for 5s after Cover expired, deleting any additional instances of Cover once active. The latter would be a large-scale PvP only change since you can't run two Paladins in Crystalline Conflict. The former would be a direct nerf to the ability and would make Cover-Elixir and Ovoo Capture EXTREMELY tight if not impossible. This may come together with an adjustment to the rest of PLDs kit, since losing half of your Cover duration is fairly significant.

As you may see, the reason it is not addressed ASAP is because it is not that easy to just say "roll with it" from the development / design side. It sucks, but it is what it is, even for Yoshida's team.

Also the reason Onsal Hakair does not fit the bill like Rival Wings is because Rival Wings has more elements with HP bars to attack (mammets, towers, mechs, mercenary, tank, crystal) that warranted extensive balance testing with the new damage and HP values everyone has gotten. Like a mech with old HP and damage values would be complete garbanzo.

Lastly, the reason I'm mainly miffed is that I keep seeing "ban the PLDs doing this" as if they should bear the punishment. It is an awfully broken combo, but hate the game, not the player.

[BRVV]

PVP rebalancing clearly made for CC being put in all PVP modes made me think SE doesn't care about Frontlines. This bug and their failure to fix it made me confirm that and think they might hate FL.

[Naoki34]

please permaban all paladins exploiting cover in onsal thank you

Play PLD and stop crying for legit.

[Duskane]

The craziest thing about this bug to me is it's been in the game since 6.1 and they've not fixed it. Unless they change the notes last minute (always possible and I hope they do), it doesn't look like 6.2 will be fixing it either.

It's the kind of bug in almost any other game they'd probably have an emergency maintenance to address. It legitimately ruins one of their game modes and they just seemingly don't care enough to prioritize a fix.

Given this and how awful some of the other changes have been, I'm legitimately wondering if the devs even play frontlines at this point. I hate to say that sort of thing, but frontlines has had some bizarre balance changes on top of game breaking bugs like this that go completely unaddressed.

we have prelim patch notes will get full patch notes when game goes down

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

PVP rebalancing clearly made for CC being put in all PVP modes made me think SE doesn't care about Frontlines. This bug and their failure to fix it made me confirm that and think they might hate FL.

I mean it is the gamemode with periodically causing / creating the most problems occuring compared to CC, Feast and RW...

Also I am hardly surprised they took CC under their wing as the primary mode and making large-scale PvP a second / third. They did work on that for probably about a year alone and the overall package is, despite what many feel, a success.

[BRVV]

I mean it is the gamemode with periodically causing / creating the most problems

It has way more players than CC so yeah no suprise

Also I am hardly surprised they took CC under their wing as the primary mode

Why should there even be a primary mode that all skills and systems are based on? Why not have differences in the modes? Oh wait we have! 20% less defense on job whatever and other garbage. Skills stay the same. Since CC we have or had White Mage bug, all dying to Summoner Limit, Paladin Onsal cheese and almost unkillable Ninjas because Melees are now tanks apparently. At this point i don't understand why they don't just remove the mode.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[1]Why should there even be a primary mode that all skills and systems are based on? Why not have differences in the modes? Oh wait we have! 20% less defense on job whatever and other garbage. Skills stay the same.
[2] Since CC we have or had (a)White Mage bug, (b)all dying to Summoner Limit, (c)Paladin Onsal cheese and (d)almost unkillable Ninjas because Melees are now tanks apparently.
[3] At this point i don't understand why they don't just remove the mode.

1) Because the alternate realities would be either having two completely different systems (parameters, damage values, system interactions, etc) and probably also skill kits OR there is no primary mode and thus no clear direction where to balance / readjust things, which could cause any balance changes to take once again months unlike what we experienced with the bi-weekly changes we saw on CC's advent.

To add to the first one, this basically means DOUBLE the workload for designing kits and mode balances for no gain at all. In fact, skill transition between the modes would fall extremely flat, discouraging trying other modes because you need to relearn everything / learn a completely different game.

2.) To go case by case:

a) WHM bug occured because there wasn't a single weaponskill / spell with cast time having charges before, so that bug is a technical debt of the Charge system from 5.0. This simply was never tested since it never got used this way.
b) I'll admit this one is tragic since it is essentially reminiscent of the original Caster LB nuke, though with a greater radius and a follow-up.
c) As discussed before, problematic but how would adjust without botching the viability in Crystalline Conflict
d) Yeah no I don't get either why Ninjas got -60% dmg taken when they are basically ranged with their Shurikens and got access to Huton + Meisui. Even for CC I consider NIN to be fairly obnoxious overall.

3.) Because the mode isn't dead. For all the flaws it is still very much alive. Also consider the following:

Dev: "Sir, can we remove Frontlines?"
Yoshi: "Why?"
Dev: "People have asked for the removal of it.
Yoshi: "No, why would we remove assets that are still in use? Also, removing it would invalidate the work our workers have put into it."
Dev: "But the gamemode is incredibly unbalanced-"
Yoshi: "So the problem is balance and not Frontlines. Let's see when we get to those after we bring back Rival Wings."

Obviously staged, but this is the train of thought in game design and development. If assets are in use despite their flaws and cause no problems outside of their usecase, don't remove them.

[BRVV]

1) Because the alternate realities would be either having two completely different systems (parameters, damage values, system interactions, etc) and probably also skill kits OR there is no primary mode and thus no clear direction where to balance / readjust things, which could cause any balance changes to take once again months unlike what we experienced with the bi-weekly changes we saw on CC's advent.

By that logic why not have PVE systems in PVP? Less systems to work on!

a) WHM bug occured because there wasn't a single weaponskill / spell with cast time having charges before, so that bug is a technical debt of the Charge system from 5.0. This simply was never tested since it never got used this way.

Since SE can't even test their stuff why even worry about having more systems? Just give back old PVP for FL and call it a day.

About FL: Remove the roulette and see how dead it will become