Adding attack-or-take-damage/die mechanics to end-game dungeons

[Kuroka]

Sighs in Reprisal spam.

Laughs in Stockpiled Xenoglossys, Triplecasts, Swiftcast, Umbral Paradox and Sharpcast procs.

Guffaws in Summoner.

I had a FC mate who played blm for years and complained one day how he cant beat lv 50 trials solo on 80ish... i was like... why on earth?? turns out he never had the idea of using Scathe while moving and using his insta cast buffs etc xD

Yes we really need a "move and attack OR die" check

[Deveryn]

WOW is still the largest MMO, we are close but WOW still holds it, and WOW maintains that title partially because they balance their casual and endgame content and have a decent difficulty levelling curve

14 just jumps from “cure 1 spam is fine to 99% of your GCD’s must be glare or we will enrage” with absolutely no middle ground and it’s a big part of why we have such poor capped population retention

WoW is and always was hot garbage. It's biggest appeal was how easy it was to run on any system. It had the simplest style and simplest gameplay, appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator. It really doesn't hold a candle to many others. Games like the Everquests still run despite it. I'm sick of hearing about it, especially when people come over and have to talk about how bad it was. I don't wanna hear about your ex. I wanna play and talk about XIV.

[Supersnow845]

WoW is and always was hot garbage. It's biggest appeal was how easy it was to run on any system. It had the simplest style and simplest gameplay, appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator. It really doesn't hold a candle to many others. Games like the Everquests still run despite it. I'm sick of hearing about it, especially when people come over and have to talk about how bad it was. I don't wanna hear about your ex. I wanna play and talk about XIV.

I haven’t played WOW (well not since WOTLK), I’m a legacy 14 player and played 11 before that, I’m simply not willing to pan off another massive MMO that makes some legit good decisions because I don’t like it

Thinking 14 is some god that is above criticism is just stupid, especially since ARR was based on WOW after legacy crashed

[Supersnow845]

It's honestly hard to respond to a post when nothing in that post seems connected to reality. WoW is probably still the largest in terms of pure players, but the trajectory it's going on is abysmal compared to FFXIV. It's not really considered the "best MMO" at the moment; it's just desperately hanging on to the small % of its original playerbase, which was plummeted, while FFXIV is enjoying its most played expansion to date.

Someone else already covered the lack of "balance" in WoW, and it's very well known for its "raid or die" mentality at end-game. There's practically nothing for the casual player there, compared to the veritable mountain of non-raid side content available in FFXIV.

And what's that about "poor capped player retention"? Frankly, I haven't seen that at all. You get the natural mid-to-late patch population dips that happen in _every_ MMO in existence, but in EW even those troughs maintain a significantly higher playerbase than similar troughs in past expansions. That "poor retention" simply doesn't exist relative to any other game in the genre.

Yes WOW is on a downward trajectory, doesn’t mean that it isn’t still worth analysing as 14’s largest and closest competitor, people love to act like WOW is completely dead when it’s population is plateauing and it’s still far bigger than all its competition than 14

Balance is crap with time walking but current area and starting area as a levelling experience is more balanced than 14’s completely flat levelling curve, 14 just doesn’t challenge you at all. Plus there is plenty of stuff for casual people to do that isn’t mythic, especially because the game prepares you better for endgame content to be something between “extreme and AFK in limsa”

Lucky bancho always does census for the population of 14 and the percentage of the population dropping the game after around 6 months of reaching level 90 is increasing and has been since ShB, the game is basically becoming a single player game people drop at capped level, this has nothing to do with post patch lulls

[Vedauwoo]

This kind of thing could be done by adding intermediate "goals" into the Raids/duties/etc.

For instance..... a "serious" party should be able to take down a given boss in a shorter amount of time than a casual party.....so gate the option for more difficult content there....

If the party is better at the game and its mechanics, they could get the option to "take on additional enemies" or "increase severity" etc..... If the party is not up to task, not geared properly, more social or casual in nature, they take the regular path and aren't even prompted for the additional difficulty.

[TaleraRistain]

Sure the newest best MMO will casualize the genre like WoW and Everquest did back then

Wait. What. You think EverQuest was casual? You think spending an entire night traveling across zones and taking boats just to get to the place you wanted to camp in the next night was casual? You think there being nothing to do past the newbie yard in that game but raid for 12+ hours with 71 other people was casual? Or was it spending hours shouting for groups because of the miniscule number of camp spots in given zones casual? And then being expected to find your replacement when you had to leave so you weren't the one that caused the group to die.

I think you mean EverQuest II and even that was more casual (you could actually solo by design there) than EverQuest but still nothing near where World of Warcraft was when it came out.

And none of those games really gave a fig about a story. There was good lore, but the games didn't showcase it or have any sort of connecting arc. That was fine for its time, but the MMO genre has changed and these more story-focused games are experiencing a lot of popularity. Also easily accessible games that let people engage with them to the level they desire. SE needs to make decisions that are going to keep them successful in this ever-changing genre and so far it seems that they're succeeding. I read something recently that mentioned SE has made comments that things like Duty Support have indeed brought in people who were intimidated by the fact that XIV is an MMO. And they're not closing other avenues off entirely. They're trying to maintain a healthy balance so the more casual content is accessible, and the optional content is where to find the challenge.

[vetch]

WoW is and always was hot garbage. It's biggest appeal was how easy it was to run on any system. It had the simplest style and simplest gameplay, appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator.

Shhh, nobody tell this guy what FF14 healers play like.

[Rilifane]

WoW is and always was hot garbage. It's biggest appeal was how easy it was to run on any system. It had the simplest style and simplest gameplay, appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator. It really doesn't hold a candle to many others. Games like the Everquests still run despite it. I'm sick of hearing about it, especially when people come over and have to talk about how bad it was. I don't wanna hear about your ex. I wanna play and talk about XIV.

So FFXIV is doing things right because it's succesful and numbers are proof that it's doing things right and is a good game.
But somehow for WoW, which has been the most successful MMO for many, many years by a signifcant margin, success and big numbers don't mean or prove anything and it is and was always hot garbage and doesn't hold a candle to other MMOs?
Fascinating.

I believe this is called a "double standard".

And I suppose it never crossed your mind that a game can do some things right and others wrong, did it? Because that is the entire reason people bring up different games: to point out how another game did something right or better in their opinion or the opposite and how something was clearly a failure and shouldn't be repeated.

[TaleraRistain]

This kind of thing could be done by adding intermediate "goals" into the Raids/duties/etc.

For instance..... a "serious" party should be able to take down a given boss in a shorter amount of time than a casual party.....so gate the option for more difficult content there....

If the party is better at the game and its mechanics, they could get the option to "take on additional enemies" or "increase severity" etc..... If the party is not up to task, not geared properly, more social or casual in nature, they take the regular path and aren't even prompted for the additional difficulty.

That sounds like the way they're looking for Variant dungeons. But how would this work in normal dungeons and roulette? Given the way everyone likes to speedrun roulettes, then killing faster seems like it would be a detriment, since it would mean that party has to take on additional content. Would we see groups intentionally killing slowly just so they can avoid that extra path?

[Deveryn]

Amazing, I didn't actually express an opinion about FFXIV, but there folks go rambling in response.