Adding attack-or-take-damage/die mechanics to end-game dungeons

[Asako]

You have to understand the most common player in this game isn't actually that good at this game. A lot of players are just here for the story. This is why so much story content has been nerfed into oblivion. The standard user can't and doesn't want to deal with mechanics so adding them to story mode just doesn't make sense. Better to keep them in Savage / Extreme where people are actually interested in the combat side of the game. I'm all for harder mechanics, but from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense for them.

[Magikazam]

that's just false if anything shadowbringer and Endwalker normal mode dungeons and trial got more complex and deadly mechanics than before you don't have to make them as hard or punishing as extreme one. Just look at grand cosmos in SHB, boss set you on fire and it act as a weak DoT, but if you don't remove it fast enough it just kills you. idk I find that more complex than most pre SHB mechanics you can ignore it most of the time,

[Nuki]

You have to understand the most common player in this game isn't actually that good at this game. A lot of players are just here for the story. This is why so much story content has been nerfed into oblivion. The standard user can't and doesn't want to deal with mechanics so adding them to story mode just doesn't make sense. Better to keep them in Savage / Extreme where people are actually interested in the combat side of the game. I'm all for harder mechanics, but from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense for them.

i think that a large part of the player base is not intrested in battle content

[Asako]

i think that a large part of the player base is not intrested in battle content

Exactly, they have no interest in the battle style so there is no reason to implement harder casual content anymore. It just doesn't make sense. People just wanna watch the story and move on.

[Magikazam]

Exactly, they have no interest in the battle style so there is no reason to implement harder casual content anymore. It just doesn't make sense. People just wanna watch the story and move on.

But if someone is interested purely in the gameplay and fight mechanic he has to watch the 750+ quests of MSQ or pay to skip them up to endwalker, Just sounds like a weird double standard to me. I get it appeals to casuals who are the biggest part of the player base, but MMO and Final Fantasy in general appeal to people who love to do fights and sometimes grind, the last 3 main games (Minus XIV) gameplay loop is still about fighting monsters tons like you would expect from a JRPG.

What I'm trying to say is that you can blame MMO players to ask for harder normal content, that are rampant in the genre, when they play a game marketed as ''The best MMORPG on the market''

[Striker44]

But if someone is interested purely in the gameplay and fight mechanic he has to watch the 750+ quests of MSQ or pay to skip them up to endwalker, Just sounds like a weird double standard to me. I get it appeals to casuals who are the biggest part of the player base, but MMO and Final Fantasy in general appeal to people who love to do fights and sometimes grind, the last 3 main games (Minus XIV) gameplay loop is still about fighting monsters tons like you would expect from a JRPG.

What I'm trying to say is that you can blame MMO players to ask for harder normal content, that are rampant in the genre, when they play a game marketed as ''The best MMORPG on the market''

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

[Magikazam]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

It is a double standard, game is called a MMORPG, genre is known for having things like grind and gameplay-centered fights since the genre is a thing, Sure the newest best MMO will casualize the genre like WoW and Everquest did back then, but they kept the important gameplay loop of the genre, and that IMO is where I draw the line. What the next step? next MMORPG casualization step? if you wipe 3 times in extreme the boss commit senpuku so the casual player can get some shiny mount?

Also WoW did not die cause it was raid-focused and ''anti-casual'' FR not just show you never step in a wow raid in LFG difficulty ever. Nah the issue was bad dev management stockpiling since the last 5-7 years or so and just ignoring the player base interest in general, that and locking MSQ content behind time-gated content. to put it in FFXIV way, it wouldn't be bad to being forced to do pandemonium on normal difficulty once in the story, but it would be if they made it so you need full gears set of that place + good materia to even accept the next quest.

[TaleraRistain]

Sure the newest best MMO will casualize the genre like WoW and Everquest did back then

Wait. What. You think EverQuest was casual? You think spending an entire night traveling across zones and taking boats just to get to the place you wanted to camp in the next night was casual? You think there being nothing to do past the newbie yard in that game but raid for 12+ hours with 71 other people was casual? Or was it spending hours shouting for groups because of the miniscule number of camp spots in given zones casual? And then being expected to find your replacement when you had to leave so you weren't the one that caused the group to die.

I think you mean EverQuest II and even that was more casual (you could actually solo by design there) than EverQuest but still nothing near where World of Warcraft was when it came out.

And none of those games really gave a fig about a story. There was good lore, but the games didn't showcase it or have any sort of connecting arc. That was fine for its time, but the MMO genre has changed and these more story-focused games are experiencing a lot of popularity. Also easily accessible games that let people engage with them to the level they desire. SE needs to make decisions that are going to keep them successful in this ever-changing genre and so far it seems that they're succeeding. I read something recently that mentioned SE has made comments that things like Duty Support have indeed brought in people who were intimidated by the fact that XIV is an MMO. And they're not closing other avenues off entirely. They're trying to maintain a healthy balance so the more casual content is accessible, and the optional content is where to find the challenge.

[vetch]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG).

Terrible reasoning because both RPGs and MMOs have detailed battle systems for players to learn and enjoy even when they're trying to tell grandiose stories. It doesn't matter what order you put the acronym in.

[Supersnow845]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

WOW is still the largest MMO, we are close but WOW still holds it, and WOW maintains that title partially because they balance their casual and endgame content and have a decent difficulty levelling curve

14 just jumps from “cure 1 spam is fine to 99% of your GCD’s must be glare or we will enrage” with absolutely no middle ground and it’s a big part of why we have such poor capped population retention