Some Smaller Ninja Changes

[vinney690]

Hey I'd like to see some smaller, manageable changes to the job that are easy to handle for square. I don't really want to see an entire class rework, Just some changes to help it maintain that ninja/assassin niche.. The Pvp ninja is really great, it definitely holds its identity well there.
Anyway, here are some of my ideas and I'd like to hear some of yours.
Again in not talking about a whole class rework, but just some little things to try and give us a more traditional ninja feel.

change "throwing Knives" to a "Kunia throw" or
"Small shuriken" after the job upgrade from Rogue.

Maybe some rework to hide where after entering combat it wouldn't fall off but give the ninja/rogue a small evasion buff and crit buff. Probably lose the movement speed debuff too, only for the in combat version, it could be as simple as it changes to "Hidden(in combat)"

Add a "smoke bomb" to reapply hidden and maybe make it a party buff where it lowers enemy accuracy and slightly heightens party crit.

Something needs to be done about assassinate.. I preferred the old version where it was dream within a dream into assassinate ogcd, not losing assassinate altogether after you level high enough.

Our Bunny Hat failed mudra isn't horrible(I kinda like him and sometimes fail on purpose just to say hi).. it just feels out of place, I'd like to see that little bunny moved to whole new job that revolves around slots/gambling like a Setzer-esq Niche from ff6.

Anyway I'd like to hear some of your ideas! Let's talk about some small changes that wouldn't alter the class and job too much. I just feel like its identity is pulling between the ninja/rogue/assassin trope and a knife-mage/melee-caster type thing.

[Tetsujin]

Mudra failure = aethetic imbalance explosion. You lose HP.

... Okay, this would never happen but it'd be so funny.

Why do you want a rework though? Seems to me (NIN level 70something atm, leveling) that this class is one of the few with a still robust and rather rich feeling to it.

[vinney690]

I do agree that at the moment it is one of the best feeling classes. It just sorta feels like it's trying to be a melee dps/caster thing instead of filling that assassin/ninja niche people might expect from the class/job.
One example I've found, in low lvl dungeons you can use hide to sneak by mobs if you want to, but in alot of higher level dungeons all mobs have detection so hide is basically only used to reset your mudras.
I guess I kinda got a forum fever reading all of the "ninja needs reworks" posts on here and wanted to put down my feelings on the matter. I guess I should probably edit my original post, because I definitely don't feel it needs a complete rework anymore.
I do love the job the way it is, I just feel like a few little changes could help the class identity lean in a better direction.
An Aetheric explosion on mudra mistakes would be funny as hell. It could be friendly fire too lol. "Oh crap i killed the healer and myself messing up my mudras!" Yeah that would be terrible lol.

[aloneatsea]

Curious which 'Ninja needs reworks' posts you're referring to? I've only seen posts regarding a desire for the reversal of the recent changes to Ninja, which many feel have deviated from its core gameplay.

[Quyn]

Not dropping the raiju buffon weapon skill usage is my number one wish. Itgoes against established muscle memory of 88 levels or so.

Rolling trick and mug into one, also seems more reasonable but whatever.

Lastly, tsj being a field in which the ninja can move, is long overdue.

[vinney690]

Thanks for asking Aloneatsea, I guess some of the ones I looked at were kinda old. There's this epic one I skimmed through.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/434768?
I haven't put in the time to read through all the posts in that thread..
I saw your post from almost 2 months ago, but then I was just reading everyone expressing their different disappointments and I generalized by saying "ninja needs reworks"
There was another I read that after just now going back to it I discovered it's just a newer post of the same person in that link up above, but even still it's just a long winded way of saying they don't like the recent changes, like your saying. So besides that one older post up above, I mis-labeled people's opinions, my bad.

I was going to ask, since its unlikely they'll revert the recent changes, I'm curious what sort of small changes you would like to see done to the job..
Frankly though I'm pretty disappointed. it seems apparent that square either doesn't read our English forums at all, doesn't care, and/or we have such a small dev presence that it doesn't matter how much we express our desires on here anyway. I started posting on here with the wrong assumptions.

[aloneatsea]

snip

Given that thread is from Shadowbringers, and that we're about 8 months into Endwalker, it sure seems like you've done some gravedigging. The current threads have indeed been on people's discontentment with the changes in 6.1. Is it pointless to continue making thread after thread, post after post? Probably. Ninja hit an unfortunate perfect storm. It's the top DPS numbers-wise, and a shockingly large percentage of the playerbase only care about what numbers they can put out. It doesn't matter how a job is changed; if it deals more damage, it's a good change. Momentum was against us from the moment the patch dropped.

I don't think that the developers don't hear us. The Ninja thread on the JP side of the forums is equally as unhappy about the changes, with very similar complaints. The problem is that what we want -- this previous iteration of Ninja -- and what the developers want -- a neat, tidy, easy to balance set of almost-identical jobs -- are not compatible.


I do think it's important to note that a lot of the grievances the poster you linked have stated are actually problems that existed with the Ninja job before the 5.1 rework. I've seen a lot of sentiment across multiple threads across multiple years that Ninja does not satisfy their specific expectations of a 'Ninja' in an MMO, which is fascinating to me, given that Ninja is quite explicitly inspired by Naruto? Moving away from this design would be moving away from the class identity, not towards it.


I wasn't present for the pre-5.1 iteration of Shadowbringers Ninja, though; I started playing late into Patch 5.55. Because of this, I don't hold much affection for the prior iterations of Ninja, even if I can see concepts and abilities that excite me (and there are plenty of those). For me, I live in New Zealand. Until recently, the best ping I could get playing FFXIV was about 200, maybe 180 on a good day. It's common knowledge that higher ping means higher animation lock; it's impossible to double-weave on high ping. For a job like pre-5.1 Ninja, this renders it entirely unplayable due to a mechanic, unavoidable constraint. I would never have picked up FFXIV if not for that Ninja rework, frankly. Square Enix can thank that rework for the sub money I'm currently paying them.

The difference between that rework and the current changes is a reasonable argument for them. The Ninja changes in 5.1, are, at least to me, reasonable in that they enabled a far greater number of people to play the job whilst maintaining as much of the job identity as possible. GCD mudras were a big change, I'm sure. The APM most likely plunged. But people like me were able to pick the job up and succeed with it, where before it was previously impossible, simply because of where I lived and FFXIV's brilliant networking.

The current, 6.1 changes do not enable anyone. They do not benefit anyone, aside from perhaps the developers. It was not a change made with players in mind, and it did not fix any problems Ninja players (or would-be Ninja players) had with the job. The impact of these changes was the same -- a small, but significant change to how the job plays and what it's responsible for -- but for nothing.

If the developers intended those changes to benefit Ninja players, I would expect them to fix the Ninki generation issue sooner. I would expect them to improve their networking such that mudra inputs don't get eaten if you press them slightly too quickly after your last weaponskill. I would expect that they increase the potencies on Hellfrog Medium, Katon, and Goka Mekkyaku, to allow them to be used in a two-target rotation, as opposed to relegating half of Ninja's kit to dungeons and dungeons alone. There are no three-target raid bosses in modern FFXIV.

I can understand if our vision for the job doesn't align with the developers. I would estimate it is actually fairly rare that a genuinely good suggestion comes from the forums. We are not game developers, and the suggestions we make are likely rife with unseen issues. The problem comes when the developers, who have branded themselves as they who listen to their fanbase above all other developers, become cagey when it is asked why unpopular changes were made. The developers know very well that the SAM and NIN changes were unpopular. The developers know very well that SAM and NIN mains want either a reversion or a damn good explanation as to why they're cutting us down. And yet they remain silent.

I'll eat my words if we see some good news tomorrow when the Patch Notes drop, but whichever direction the developers intend to take jobs from now on does not excite me. When I first joined this game, Patch Notes were exciting. Will my favourite job get buffed? What new abilities will I get to play around with? Now, I am simply filled with dread. There is a misalignment between what I (and other raiders) want from jobs, and what the developers intend to give. But our opinions don't matter, in the end. FFXIV is still big. Casual content will keep money coming in. Because it is about money, in the end.



More to the topic of your thread, since I've derailed enough, the changes I'd like to see:
- Removal of the party buff on Mug. Even better if they kill the ability entirely. In my opinion, it's a very small change to put it back on Trick.

- The removal of Raijus. While I think they're a cool ability and fun to use, they remove so much potential for other elements in Ninja's kit, eating up power budget and GCD slots within Trick.

- A return to some kind of DOT. I'm baffled that Ninja doesn't have some kind of poison DOT, frankly. I'd love to see a return to Stormblood form, with our DOT being a branching combo from our regular GCDs. You'd always want to put a refresh in Trick, but that conflicts with how starved we are for open GCD slots in Trick right now, what with so many Raijus. I like having to keep something up, though. Leads to some fun optimisation.

- Bring back prepull Doton. Punishing players for creative optimisation is not a fun or engaging way to moderate your game. "No, you're not playing Ninja the correct way."


- More varied oGCDs and less Ninki gain overall. Frankly, I'm tired of pushing Bhavacakra. We generate so much Ninki at the moment it's ridiculous. Between Mug, and +15 every third GCD, we're rolling in more Ninki than ever. The job stays busy, but we're just hitting the same buttons. I'd love some variety. We have plenty of retired oGCDs to pick from (hi Jugulate, Assassinate, Duality etc), so why not?


- Extension of the Huton timer. This might sound like an odd gripe, but there is a specific cutscene (in TEA, the transition from Alexander Prime -> Perfect Alexander) where refreshing Huton at the right time would allow you to maintain it without dropping it over the duration of the cutscene. With the current, 60s timer, you cannot maintain Huton across the cutscene. It just... feels really bad. Having a slightly longer duration would offer a bit more flexibility in when you could refresh it/make it a bit easier for newer Ninja players. Hitting Huraijin feels, frankly, really bad. It's like a punishment button for being bad at Ninja, except... they made it arbitrarily harder. If we see a 55+s cutscene in P8S, I'll be really sad unless this is changed.

A lot of my suggestions sound like reverts -- because, well, they are, for the most part. I play this job to the detriment of all others jobs; I really only swap if I want to learn how another class functions to better support my Ninja play. Having gone through the transition from Shadowbringers Ninja to Endwalker Ninja, a lot of these changes just... don't feel good for one reason or another. Death by a thousand cuts, I suppose. The job incrementally gets worse over time, with each increment being "not a big deal" individually, until it all stacks up and you realise the job no longer brings you any joy. A... pessimistic view of my future, I suppose.

I don't think they'll actually implement any of my suggestions. The party buff shituation is unlikely to improve as we head closer and closer to tank-levels of homogeneity. If we're really lucky, we might get a DOT back in 7.0. It'd have to be as a capstone, though, or as an additional effect on an already-existing ability. I don't think they want to add too many more GCDs.
Raijus definitely won't leave anytime soon, much as they are a detriment to the class. Ninja's two-target rotation is, similarly, unlikely to recover. They're cause and consequence, you see.
More varied oGCDs? Maybe in 7.0. I'd expect at least one.
The Huton timer change? I don't know. They really seem to want everything to align to their perfect two-minute schedule. It feels very suffocating.
And Doton? Lol. I don't even have any words for that beyond "kick us while we're down".

[RaevusAstra]

snip

Honestly, I can't agree that pushing oGCDs makes the job more fun unless they are specifically designed. Assassinate was one of the oGCDs that used to be separate from DwaD and you could only use it when the boss was at <25% HP, then it became DwaD's combo action. Either way, it felt clunky because it animation locked until just about your next GCD and made it hard to move for mechanics. So, you want to use more Ninki gauge and stop dumping Ninki into Bhavacakra? How about when Ten Chi Jin required Ninki? You'd have to decide between overcapping your ninki to use Ten Chi Jin after it came off cd on your next one or two GCDs OR using a Bhava and delaying your TCJ. Add oGCDs not tied to Ninki, and you have to decide whether to push back Bhava or use that GCD because NIN's 2 min burst window is ridiculously busy.

You mentioned Jugulate and Assassinate, but Jugulate hit like a wet noodle (and silence was is a useless effect on any enemy that matters in current content) and Assassinate had anim lock problems; imo, the best way to make use of oGCDs is when they augment other actions. Duality is the only one I can agree that's the best pick for them to bring back as an oGCD, but the team seems so adamant about not having another Stormblood Dark Arts that I don't think it's ever likely to happen, sadly. And to be fair, Bunshin actively performs a nearly similar role, but is better in a lot of ways.

[1/2]

[RaevusAstra]

Shadow Fang was a combo action in early ShB as well (2 hit combo from Spinning Edge instead of 3 hit in SB), but they removed it and made it a separate GCD entirely because it didn't play well with a standard rotation on different Skill Speeds. It was the same deal with late SHB when they made it its own GCD, but again, it played weird with SKS and was just removed. Raiju imo fills the niche for a new GCD while adding utility and job identity. Given situations where you have to move out of AOEs during your burst window, the flexibility of being able to align my Raitons to disengage and stack my Raijus to reengage feels stellar, especially when paired with Shukuchi. Imo, it's by far the most compelling reason for myself to play NIN, and honestly, I hope they add more Ninjutsu-> Melee action combos in the future. I'd love to see Katon or Phantom finishers, or even another combo action from Raiju again (just.... not the forced gap closer crap).

The Huton timer is barely a noticeable change. Decent NIN players never drop Huton, and it's just ten less generous seconds. Honestly, I thought people would think that's a good change cause it "makes the class harder", idk. Is your argument that Huton should be extended due to one particular fight cutscene, and it ruins the job because of that cutscene? We literally have Huraijin for situations like that. Not saying optimizing a fight and squeezing every bit of potency out isn't fun, but it's so strange to me to see people complain about a loss of 10, 15 potency sometimes just because a number isn't tweaked exactly as they like.

Point is people have their subjective opinions about what they want out of a job. There is clearly intent for the developers to make jobs more fun, and while you (and I) may not agree with every decision they make, someone will like it, and someone won't. That's the way it works. People on the forums do not represent the majority of players - this is clear in the fact that many of the same players on the forums post their opinions in different threads. Yoshi P and team probably honestly gain more valuable feedback (or at least is more attentive of said feedback) from live letter Twitch/YT comments, streamers, and media tours than the forums.

[2/2]