DRK vs. WAR: how do they compare?

[RyuDragnier]

Everything warrior does drk does better, why bother?

Wait, DRK has insane self-sustain to where it can easily heal itself?

[wyznwyb]

Wait, DRK has insane self-sustain to where it can easily heal itself?

the only environment warrior actually has better mitigation than any other tank is in the exact, specific context of wall-to-walling in dungeons, an environment which none of the tanks are actually balanced around--and to be frank, dark knight isn't even that much worse when you actually consider how quickly mobs melt with all of its AOE abilities. otherwise, warrior's short-term mitigation is worse, with an underwhelming heal on single target, a tiny shield and a 10% mitigation when every other tank has an equivalent that is far better (and, in the blackest night's case, has a much shorter cooldown), and its one unique party-wide mitigation requires you to spend at least one other mitigation to be useful compared to something like dark missionary. its one niche in 6.0 was that it had a short cooldown on holmgang, except not only does dark knight have an objectively better version of holmgang after 6.1 with an only slightly longer cooldown, but because every tankbuster in 6.2 gives a massive bleed/poison that can immediately kill the tank if they aren't actively mitigating it anyways, the one thing you used holmgang on is simply not something you do anymore.

people confuse dark knight's mitigations being unwieldy as them being weak, and to be honest, it's the perception of dark knight's stuff being weak that's most of the reason dark knight is absurdly strong right now. the way you've described oblation in another thread is a perfect example of this; dark knight is the only tank that can immediately give three single-target mitigations to other party members for very little cost, something that even paladin, the support tank, isn't allowed to do, and something that can actively save runs the moment a fight actually stresses good mitigation like in the most recent ultimate, but because two of those mitigations are merely good enough to make people survive attacks that'd kill them, as opposed to being two charges of nascent flash, is that truly supposed to be not good enough?

[Oizen]

We just pretending that Nascent flash doesnt exist again right

[ForteNightshade]

We just pretending that Nascent flash doesnt exist again right

Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting are comically overrated. In a dungeon setting, the latter is an absolute monster. No doubt about it. Alas, in Savage, Heart of Corundum is simply better. Even TBN is comparable. At the end of the day, self-healing simply isn't as good as mitigation.

[RyuDragnier]

Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting are comically overrated. In a dungeon setting, the latter is an absolute monster. No doubt about it. Alas, in Savage, Heart of Corundum is simply better. Even TBN is comparable. At the end of the day, self-healing simply isn't as good as mitigation.

If you're with a healer who you know. If you don't know the healer or if they're underperforming, you'd rather have the self-healing, every day of the week.

[Absurdity]

If you're with a healer who you know. If you don't know the healer or if they're underperforming, you'd rather have the self-healing, every day of the week.

Except that Bloodwhetting can't save you there either, it's not any stronger than HoC or Holy Shelltron in a single target situation.

[Rithy255]

Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting are comically overrated. In a dungeon setting, the latter is an absolute monster. No doubt about it. Alas, in Savage, Heart of Corundum is simply better. Even TBN is comparable. At the end of the day, self-healing simply isn't as good as mitigation.

I think looking at both HOC and BW side by side shows BW is actually pretty similar in mitigation.

HOC = 15% + 15%
BW = 10% + 10% and a shield for around 7-10% of your HP
Both work out pretty strong, considering that the shield also has your mit stacked with it BW's actual mitigation is fairly decent despite what people have been saying, this shows they're actually not far off from each other on single target ignoring healing

This ontop of having the stronger healing effect (ignoring how flash is a outright better bw for a friend), I would consider BW The best personal even in single target, TBN also is the best depending on the situation as it's hard to compare TBN to other tanks personals.

[MrZalgo]

I think looking at both HOC and BW side by side shows BW is actually pretty similar in mitigation.

HOC = 15% + 15%
BW = 10% + 10% and a shield for around 7-10% of your HP
Both work out pretty strong, considering that the shield also has your mit stacked with it BW's actual mitigation is fairly decent despite what people have been saying, this shows they're actually not far off from each other on single target ignoring healing

This ontop of having the stronger healing effect (ignoring how flash is a outright better bw for a friend), I would consider BW The best personal even in single target, TBN also is the best depending on the situation as it's hard to compare TBN to other tanks personals.

TBN is an interesting case where by itself TBN can reduce a significant amount of damage a TB does, but because most of the TBs have DOTs attached to them, you want to use TBN rather aggressively. As mentioned above you can use it early to reduce the TB itself and force a proc, while also being able to use it again in the middle of the DOT to reduce 1-2 ticks to force a second proc. You could also use it in the middle of the DOT to force a safe proc and save it for the 3/5 burst you need to keep up for 2 minute raid buffs.

This makes it hard to compare defensive wise to BW or HOC since those short CDs can't mitigate the TB and DOT as well, but also have decent sustain to give healers some leeway. TBN + Oblation also gives more defense compared to the two cooldowns due to the additive defense on top of the shield.

Best way to compare in terms of playstyle: HOC and BW are best used reactively against TBs along with other mits, while TBN is a very proactive CD that really requires some planning on how you want to use it and manipulate whatever procs you get off it.

[Absurdity]

I think looking at both HOC and BW side by side shows BW is actually pretty similar in mitigation.

HOC = 15% + 15%
BW = 10% + 10% and a shield for around 7-10% of your HP
Both work out pretty strong, considering that the shield also has your mit stacked with it BW's actual mitigation is fairly decent despite what people have been saying, this shows they're actually not far off from each other on single target ignoring healing

This ontop of having the stronger healing effect (ignoring how flash is a outright better bw for a friend), I would consider BW The best personal even in single target, TBN also is the best depending on the situation as it's hard to compare TBN to other tanks personals.

One of the things that make Bloodwhetting feel so much weaker is specific to this raid tier and not even due to Bloodwhetting itself.
Thrill of Battle doesn't provide any damage mitigation which makes it absolutely terrible for busters, Camouflage on the other hand always provides 10% mitigation on top of having double the duration which most likely covers the entire DoT.

[Rithy255]

One of the things that make Bloodwhetting feel so much weaker is specific to this raid tier and not even due to Bloodwhetting itself.
Thrill of Battle doesn't provide any damage mitigation which makes it absolutely terrible for busters, Camouflage on the other hand always provides 10% mitigation on top of having double the duration which most likely covers the entire DoT.

Thrill acts (somewhat) similar to a barrier (just on a much longer cd then TBN) as it extends your HP and healing yourself for 20%, It's normally something you'd want to pair with general mitigation, I generally don't think it's weak in theory, I don't really play warrior that much so I could be wrong.
Equilibrium while it has no mitigation tied to it is generally pretty good for damage over time effects which again supplements your abilities in general, I'd believe that having a Burst heal and a HOT on 60 seconds while using a mitigation would work well against a lot of the damage over time effects? I could be wrong

Warrior and DRK have very different defensive kits (despite being so similar offensively) as one is focused on Sustain but also decent mitigation, while the other lacks sustain but generally has a boat load of mitigations. Warrior will generally have more value on some fights while drk has more value on others, I think it's likely been a bit drk bias (and gunbreaker) but I don't believe warrior would be "struggling" to tank at least not the worst,

I think the real issue is when you actually compare Paladin to other tanks which is pretty awful at tanking, it's blocks not even working properly for the fight and just lacking mitigations for fights "wowie pld has two party mits!!" considering tanks get generally enough party mitigations to cover the fight (4 between them including reprisal... really glad PLD's wings exist they're pretty!), Then PLD's a messy complicated job with pretty awful Damage, at least warrior functions generally well as a tank.