It is not possible to play without doing dps as healer? every day i find someone...

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Gotta put this on top or it’ll be glossed over again.

[…]No. One. Has. EVER. Complained. About. Low. Skill. Or. Low. Ability. Players. Not. DPSing. On. These. Forums. EVER.

Every time the conversation is brought up, it's about denouncing poor logic designed to defend griefing behavior without attacking learning or low skill play.

[Punslinger]

What essentially keeps happening in these forums is someone comes along and says some combination of the same old "but healers don't need to heal to clear," "but SE says healers should just heal," "but the primary goal of healers is to keep the party alive" and for reasons XYZ, that's why healers shouldn't be expected to DPS. Then the rest of us come in and say no, actually that's not how this game is functionally designed. DPS is a responsibility of healers, and any player who refuses to contribute is griefing, and then you get pages of arguments about how that's an attack on low skill players or players with disability.

This. I've thought about starting a compendium of Common Sylphie Fallacies that we can keep linking back to, because I've linked my refutation of the "HURR DURR HEELERZ SHULD ONLY HEAL" talking point a bunch of times already, just to save myself the time of retyping the exact same response to the exact same argument. It's as if Sylphies were in-game NPCs with the same three lines of canned dialogue they repeat over and over:

"Healers should only heal, it's in the name!" (Healers in FF14 are healers in much the same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy.)

"Pressing the 1 button is literally a Savage-level uber-l337 hax0r metagaming speedrun strat and you're a meanie for asking me to do it!" (Fallacy of the excluded middle: there's a wide middle ground between "carry me plz uwu" and "world-record speedrun" levels of effort)

"But what about One-Armed Grandma?!" (Ignoring the question of why all four healers must be lobotomized for the sake of One-Armed Grandma, who might want to play a DPS or Tank job instead. And of course ignoring all the gamers with disabilities who play much harder games than FF14 by finding ways to compensate for their disabilities. Or that One-Armed Grandma could explain her situation at the start of the dungeon with a chat macro.)

...but I hard disagree that DPS cannot make enrage if the healer is not DPSing when played perfectly.

Mathematically disproven: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5973381

The short version is that without healer DPS, even the world-record E8S speedkill would have failed to beat the enrage timer. Nizzi's post goes into the details, but the math is quite simple. Take the party DPS recorded in the log, subtract out the healer DPS, compare to the DPS required to beat the enrage timer. And this, again, is the #1 speedkill run, so presumably, the DPSers and Tanks are playing as close to perfectly as possible.

[T-Owl]

This. I've thought about starting a compendium of Common Sylphie Fallacies that we can keep linking back to, because I've linked my refutation of the "HURR DURR HEELERZ SHULD ONLY HEAL" talking point a bunch of times already, just to save myself the time of retyping the exact same response to the exact same argument. It's as if Sylphies were in-game NPCs with the same three lines of canned dialogue they repeat over and over:

"Healers should only heal, it's in the name!" (Healers in FF14 are healers in much the same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy.)

"Pressing the 1 button is literally a Savage-level uber-l337 hax0r metagaming speedrun strat and you're a meanie for asking me to do it!" (Fallacy of the excluded middle: there's a wide middle ground between "carry me plz uwu" and "world-record speedrun" levels of effort)

"But what about One-Armed Grandma?!" (Ignoring the question of why all four healers must be lobotomized for the sake of One-Armed Grandma, who might want to play a DPS or Tank job instead. And of course ignoring all the gamers with disabilities who play much harder games than FF14 by finding ways to compensate for their disabilities. Or that One-Armed Grandma could explain her situation at the start of the dungeon with a chat macro.)

When it comes to whether or not quadraplegic grandmas with alzheimers could play healers in FF14, if people would be honest with that discussion, then they should point at other issues that should be adressed to make the game more accessible. Like for example a proper mouse over function without having to deal with the janky macro system of this game.

[Coletergeist]

It's one button to dps.
It's much *much* simpler than performing a full on rotation or managing defensives and positioning bosses.
One button.
Dps is easy for dps jobs, sure, tanking is easier than that.
But wanna know what is *easier*?
One button dps as healer.
It's one button.

[FakeCirka]

I’m gonna put this part at the top...

I only read half your comment once, and that was because you clearly didn't read mine and started a rant on something you didn't read or misread.

... they work hard to improve, they like trying their best and they don’t want to be associated with no DPS healers because that’s what you see them capable of

Thats great that there are players who have disabilities and can do content perfectly fine. Not all disabilities are the same. Not all people are the same. I'm sure you know that though.

... I’m amazed at how much you do mental gymnastics to avoid any sort of point the other person is making ...

Just because I am not AGREEING with you does not mean I am avoiding any sort of point you are trying to make. I think you're more upset that I have the stance of "let bad players be bad because maybe theres a reason for it, especially in freaking NORMAL content that is forced upon them" rather than the stance of "healers must DPS at all times no matter what".

then insinuate that person is terrible on top of that for absolutely no reason.

I said "If you feel differently, you can, but I feel that makes you kind of a terrible person if you default to being mean to players in, lets be real, baby content lol". If you don't do this then these words are not directed towards you. If you do, then they do.

As someone who has a person with a disability in my static...

I play with a few people who have some form of disability which hinders their game play a lot as well. It VERY much bothers them when people have made comments about their play style. 2 of them both have a story where they ended up crying and wanting to quit the game over what people have said to them in normal content. Thats absolutely disgusting behavior. One is absolutely very sick and doesn't even know if she will be alive within the next 5 years, and its okay to make her feel like shit because she can't DPS during normal content dungeons? Let her have her enjoyment in a video game, Jesus Christ.

Ran out of text room to quote and respond to your last section. Tried to "respond to all your points" though.

If you agree that its fine if a player doesn't preform well due to reasons you may not know about (and by your last response to me, it seems like you do agree with it over all?), then why are you still trying to argue with me? I've already stated I feel a healer (and all jobs) should be using their full kit in true end game content such as Savage. I've also stated that if someone is legit just not doing their "job" because they are being lazy (although hard to prove in most cases), that's crappy of them. Not sure what more you are seeking to be honest, aside from just wanting to argue lol.

[Supersnow845]

quote .

I agree with your idea that if someone truly has a reason that they cannot perform well then in general for normal content they are fine (a quick heads up is always nice though). I 100% disagree with your extrapolation though that “since some people might have a valid reason and it’s normal content we should just let everyone do whatever they want” and especially in the form of “healers doing DPS should be seen as optional” nobody on here, me included is insulting players legit trying, Ty_taurus put it best, we are here arguing over faulty logic designed to defend people legit not trying.

If you see that as disagreement to your point then I’m fine with that, if I’ve misinterpreted your point (which I’ll admit reading my initial response I did on a few points so I’ll apologise on that front) then I honestly have no idea what your point is anymore

On the subject of your friends I’m sorry that happened but also I again say that “they might have a disability” shouldn’t be used as an omni defence because it can be just as hurtful to other players, I don’t have a disability so I’m not qualified to talk on this more I’m simply passing on what my friends have told me

[Semirhage]

I see the thread is back to Standard Sylphie Argument Number 6: "But 900 year old handless arthritic Maasai grannies might play on 5kbps connections! No complexity allowed on healers. Respect the Medica 2 spam as a perfectly valid and skilled gameplay choice!"

Missing the point again. 'Healing and buffing allies' class fantasy and 'doing damage to enemy' class fantasy are not interchangeable. I can't just flip a switch on my brain and start to find one enjoyable when I didn't before, superficial similarities of focus notwithstanding.

Though, I concur that buffing and encounter control are more interesting. Certainly more interesting than 'Push Enemy Healthbar Leftward Spell Number Eight (of Twelve)'. CBU3 doesn't seem to agree with us, though; they seem to be absolutely terrified of players being able to interface with their encounters beyond 'make bar go up or down'.

DPS (in FF14) is at least more involved than that. Not all of them, granted, but keeping track of procs. Knowing when to hold back and when to use a stored combo. Knowing where best to use a support ability. I've had WAY more fun rescuing failed runs with chained Verraises than I had trying WHM in Shadowbringers and feeling like I had little to no impact on any encounter beyond GlareHoly spamming. I called them Push Healthbar Rightward spells because that's literally all they are: largely interchangeable, hardly reward or punish you for making a "wrong" choice, and the decision tree is largely down to "is the party healthy enough for the next hit? No? Pick another one and cast it. Or the same one, who cares." DPS (at least the better designed ones) have a touch of decision making that actually noticeably impacts your performance (admittedly this has also been decreasing over time, though not as bad as healers yet). If I flub my casts, or Jolt spam, or freestyle an unenchanted melee combo, my performance takes a huge hit. If I cast Medica 2 instead of Cure 3, who cares? The next raidwide is scheduled to come out in financial quarter 3 next year, and both did the same thing for the same opportunity cost.

The thing is, this isn't new, and I don't mean that just in the context of FF14. The vast majority of RPGs I've played have utterly uninteresting healing "mechanics" slapped onto otherwise entertaining multitasker classes. Ironically 14 fits the oldschool Final Fantasy model of healing quite well! You have a set of boring noninteractive healing spells distinguished only by their potency, MP cost, and whether they hit the whole party or just one person. I'd much rather spend most of my time wondering whether Protect or Sleep or Poison would be a better choice next turn than thumb through the catalog of healing spells that are only pretending to have different effects. That catalog should be on my table within viewing distance, but the more time I'm called to look at it the more time I have to think about how interchangeable the spells are.

I guess what I'm saying is, I've seen FAR more success stories with making choice-intensive and fun kits with damage, support, CC, and debuffs. I've seen a LOT of attempts at "interesting" healing that land like a whoopee cushion. Ooo, an AoE HoT, nobody will see that one coming. A button that increases your healing spells by 15% for 10 seconds? Stop afore I'm overwhelmed by the interactivity.

[AmiableApkallu]

Ironically 14 fits the oldschool Final Fantasy model of healing quite well! You have a set of boring noninteractive healing spells distinguished only by their potency, MP cost, and whether they hit the whole party or just one person.

White Mage Rosa from FFIV would disagree with you there, I think. Half of her spells are devoted to dealing with buffs and debuffs, and she has the (unique) attack ability Aim, and this is in a game where Cure itself can be used an offensive spell against zombies.

FFXIV WHM is what you get when you strip combat of all that buff/debuff management and strip "white mage" of any sort of damage-dealing identity outside of Holy.

[vetch]

I see the thread is back to Standard Sylphie Argument Number 6: "But 900 year old handless arthritic Maasai grannies might play on 5kbps connections! No complexity allowed on healers. Respect the Medica 2 spam as a perfectly valid and skilled gameplay choice!"

Yes, and it's annoying because if they'd just drop pretense and say "DPS doesn't excite me and it isn't what I thought I'd signed up to do 95% of the time when I picked the green job" they'd have a much stronger position. It's a perfectly permissible sentiment to have. One might try to reply with "it more efficiently clears encounters" or "not doing it is disrespectful to your group" but I don't think any reasonable person truly believes that clearing encounters is all there is to the game or that we should abandon expectation of fun and play only for the sake of others... or else we wouldn't writhe so when saddled with healers' dreadfully tedious '1211111' DPS kit.

DPS (in FF14) is at least more involved than that. Not all of them, granted,

It's good that you granted that because it saves me from typing out some really terrible red-DPS kits.

but keeping track of procs. Knowing when to hold back and when to use a stored combo. Knowing where best to use a support ability. I've had WAY more fun rescuing failed runs with chained Verraises than I had trying WHM in Shadowbringers and feeling like I had little to no impact on any encounter beyond GlareHoly spamming. I called them Push Healthbar Rightward spells because that's literally all they are: largely interchangeable, hardly reward or punish you for making a "wrong" choice, and the decision tree is largely down to "is the party healthy enough for the next hit? No? Pick another one and cast it. Or the same one, who cares." DPS (at least the better designed ones) have a touch of decision making that actually noticeably impacts your performance (admittedly this has also been decreasing over time, though not as bad as healers yet). If I flub my casts, or Jolt spam, or freestyle an unenchanted melee combo, my performance takes a huge hit. If I cast Medica 2 instead of Cure 3, who cares? The next raidwide is scheduled to come out in financial quarter 3 next year, and both did the same thing for the same opportunity cost.

Problem being that CBU3 is allergic to skill tests on healers at any level of content. MSQ content, you can bring DPS who favor a 5-second GCD and still get the win. That's fine. But at Savage+ level, where the game demands practiced DPS rotations or you risk enrage, where it's actually possible to fail due to not playing DPS well enough, there's no corresponding check for traditional healer soft-skills like triage, reactive decision-making, managerial overview, or resource conservation. So of course there's so much pressure to green-DPS; healers haven't been given anything else to do! They literally forgot to install a skill ceiling for healers!

The thing is, this isn't new, and I don't mean that just in the context of FF14. The vast majority of RPGs I've played have utterly uninteresting healing "mechanics" slapped onto otherwise entertaining multitasker classes. Ironically 14 fits the oldschool Final Fantasy model of healing quite well! You have a set of boring noninteractive healing spells distinguished only by their potency, MP cost, and whether they hit the whole party or just one person. I'd much rather spend my time wondering whether Protect or Sleep or Poison would be a better choice next turn than thumb through the catalog of healing spells that are only pretending to have different effects. That catalog should be on my table within viewing distance, but the more time I'm called to look at it the more time I have to think about how interchangeable the spells are.

No, it doesn't fit the old model, because older Final Fantasys are turn-based and give you control of a team. So instead of watching my healer execute her long Holy animation for the hundredth time to do 70-80% of the damage of my offensive characters, I probably just ensure Haste is up and then either use a weak-but-quick melee attack or outright pass her turn to save real-world time. There's no capacity to choose that or any other clever little optimization in FF14 healing -- if you decline to GlareGlare your life away to do half the damage of a better-designed job, it doesn't transfer a faster GCD over so the other can take up your slack. Any similarities to older FFs are superficial.

I guess what I'm saying is, I've seen FAR more success stories with making choice-intensive and fun kits with damage, support, CC, and debuffs. I've seen a LOT of attempts at "interesting" healing that land like a whoopee cushion. Ooo, an AoE HoT, nobody will see that one coming. A button that increases your healing spells by 15% for 10 seconds? Stop afore I'm overwhelmed by the interactivity.

I, too, miss Guild Wars 1.

[T-Owl]

Problem being that CBU3 is allergic to skill tests on healers at any level of content. MSQ content, you can bring DPS who favor a 5-second GCD and still get the win. That's fine. But at Savage+ level, where the game demands practiced DPS rotations or you risk enrage, where it's actually possible to fail due to not playing DPS well enough, there's no corresponding check for traditional healer soft-skills like triage, reactive decision-making, managerial overview, or resource conservation. So of course there's so much pressure to green-DPS; healers haven't been given anything else to do! They literally forgot to install a skill ceiling for healers!
.

I feel like its even more problematic due to the fact that the Devs don't seem to have anyone dedicated to the healer role or even somebody understanding how the actual playerbase interacts with it, combined with a dismissive attitude of viewing actual healing as more of a burden, so they need to keep it as easy and non-threatening as possible so that everyone can succeed at it, which ironically just ended up with such low healing requirements and an abundance of powerful ogcd healing tools that dpsing as a Healer becomes even more expected, while the devs at the same time actively removed dps abilities so healers don't feel pressured to dps, which they already are by the very encounter design. I mean, I'm more in favor of healer dpsing because I think its the only way of making healers an engaged and busy job that isn't just passively standing around, just due to the fact that optimization and moving closer to the skill ceiling will automatically reduce healing uptime due to the reactive nature of that role, but most people agree that healers should have more healing to do and that their healing toolkits should be more engaging.