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  1. #411
    Player
    Jojoya's Avatar
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    Jojoya Joya
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    So in catching up with all the posts since I last read the thread:

    While a few people are still trying to engage in discussion of things that happened in the Live Letter (mostly Island Sanctuary), most are intent on pursuing their personal agendas still.

    aveyond-dreams has basically expressed the wish that for FFXIV to be a pure high fantasy game despite the Final Fantasy franchise having a history of being a mix of high fantasy and low fantasy.

    The Team Zodiark versus Team Hydaelyn war continues with genocide back on the menu as one side submits a definition as evidence but in doing so reveals its hypocrisy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    At any rate, here's the official definition of genocide:



    The Sundering fits every single criteria. So...yes, it's an act of genocide. Hide it behind fluffy language all you like though if the protagonists wouldn't accept such a thing happening to their loved ones then there's really no reason for anybody else to either.
    By that definition, so do the actions of the Convocation of FourteenThirteen.

    They had the intent to destroy a part of their own people for the sake of summoning Zodiark. They did so.

    After they did that, they had the intent to destroy a part of their own people to repair the damage to Etheirys. They did so.

    After that, they had the intent to destroy multiple forms of newly created life on Etheirys to try to bring back those who were killed the first time around. Venat stopped that via the Sundering.

    So why do people want to venerate the group that succeeded in 2 acts of genocide and were about to commit multiple genocides while demonizing the individual that stopped that massive wave of genocide by sundering the world to create multiple copies of all life, which probably might be considered genocide since with the knowledge we gave her she knew that some would survive but many others would die though her intent was not to actually destroy everything but rather to try to preserve what then existed?

    Something seems fishy, especially when the reality is none of these things happened. It's just a fictional story created for entertainment and a lot of people are taking it way too seriously to the detriment of their mental health.
    (12)

  2. #412
    Player
    aveyond-dreams's Avatar
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    Fenris Pendragon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    So why do people want to venerate the group that succeeded in 2 acts of genocide and were about to commit multiple genocides while demonizing the individual that stopped that massive wave of genocide by sundering the world to create multiple copies of all life, which probably might be considered genocide since with the knowledge we gave her she knew that some would survive but many others would die though her intent was not to actually destroy everything but rather to try to preserve what then existed?
    Because Venat refused to tell people the truth, setting the stage for the Convocation to summon Zodiark and so on. We do not view her as a savior, and are unlikely to be convinced she is one. The official definition of genocide has already been stated, and it is applicable in the case of the ancients. Continuing to paint her as a herois while painting the ancients as evil and arrogant is tiresome to those of us who are fans of them. This doesn't make for a story that we want to see through to the end, and remains a source of concern about the upcoming raid questline.

    She also did not create "copies" she reduced everything to this:



    This is not a copy paste job. This is to date the sole depiction of the aftermath of the Sundering (canon, written by Ishikawa) and Yoship has already stated that Hyurs, Elezen and the like evolved from this into the respective races thus Venat is not their "mother." The fact that they are bringing both her and Meteion up again has us worried for how prevalent that will be in the MSQ, so forgive us we express our concern with how they've handled things thus far and may continue with in the future.

    Fundamentally fans of the Ascians, Zodiark, Emet-Selch and all understand that yeah, they did some wrong things and indeed inflict a genocide on multiple planets. But so did Hydaelyn, and she is hailed as a herois for it, with the game intent on pushing that notion repeatedly. They raise her up at the expense of the antagonist faction that many came to love, so it is any wonder why maybe we feel like this a bit one-sided?
    (7)
    Last edited by aveyond-dreams; 08-16-2022 at 06:52 PM.
    Авейонд-сны


  3. #413
    Player
    hagare's Avatar
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    Cesan Duff
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    Quote Originally Posted by VelKallor View Post
    Ill bring home some hamburgers.
    will it have pineapple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    By that definition, so do the actions of the Convocation of FourteenThirteen.
    that was and should never have been in doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    So why do people want to venerate the group that succeeded in 2 acts of genocide
    Two? do the rejoinings not count? How many reflections have they destroyed? Not to mention the 13th which was a failed experiment for them.
    (5)
    Last edited by hagare; 08-16-2022 at 06:50 PM.

  4. 08-16-2022 06:49 PM

  5. #414
    Player
    Jojoya's Avatar
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    Jojoya Joya
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    Quote Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams View Post
    She also did not create "copies" she reduced everything to this:


    You're talking about the impressions of a character who saw our characters and civilizations in that way as well. He told us point blank that he doesn't consider us truly alive and therefore it's not murder if he kills us.

    Quote Originally Posted by hagare View Post
    will it have pineapple?



    that was and should never have been in doubt.



    Two? do the rejoinings not count? How many reflections have they destroyed? Not to mention the 13th which was a failed experiment for them.
    You're correct, thank you. I forget about the 7 successful rejoinings (or 8 if you count the now alternate timeline of Biggs the 3rd, with that timeline possibly having even more rejoinings to come depending on just how powerful Midgardsormr truly is).

    Still, people have been taking a fictional story WAAAAYYYYY too seriously. Please step back a few minutes and root yourselves in reality. None of those characters ever existed. The choices they made about what to do and the consequences of those actions never happened. Nothing says you need to like the story told or any specific characters but getting yourselves worked up so much over it is not healthy.
    (6)
    Last edited by Jojoya; 08-16-2022 at 07:02 PM.

  6. #415
    Player dapperfaffer's Avatar
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    Reis Tengille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knot_D View Post
    It's the Ancients that want to sacrifice themselves to save their world by primal, but Venat stopped them and sunder the world to stop their nonsense... (Correct me if I'm wrong)
    No, thats basically it.

    The ancients, the convocation and a majority of ancients, sacrificed themselves to summon/keep Zodiark summoned to stop the Final Days triggered by Metion. All the sacrificed Ancients 'souls' are represented by all the faces in the cutscene with Zodiark, and even Emet when he transforms into Hades, and shows them as the representation of the masked faces. These are the ones that are actually dead, dead.
    All Hydaelunie, and her group of ancients, did was shatter everything from 1 singular existance into 14(13?), so that life would have the chance to continue unimpeeded by the Source experiencing the Final Days. So, no one was technically killed by queen crazy, as much as they were splintered into multiple fragments with one fragment on each of the 14 (or 13/however many) shards. And then life from those fragments would be 'new' life.
    And all of that occured because Hermes couldn't not into being emo for 5 minutes because muh existentialisms.
    So the way the story goes is, Hermes created Metion and she ventured forth into the unknown to find the meaning of life - which she concluded was death, and entropy as all things decayed.
    so Metion went crazy and decided all life has to end, and started the final days for the ancients, and no one could figure out what was causing it so they summoned Zodiark to protect them, the root of all corruption wanted to find another way so she sundered everything, and then magically the events of endwalker take place to put us the WoL in the path of direct opposition to stop the Final Days from occuring and to make it so that hyperpsycholyn could know what caused the Final Days, which somehow makes us 'worthy' and she could finally die by creating a time loop paradox that ensures life will always survive should the WoL fail.
    at least until Pandeamonium, the laboritory out of time, is resolved and a special person involved in that story arc resolves the time loop paradox and will then act as the next Hydaelyn. (personally I think anyways)
    (3)

  7. #416
    Player
    hagare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojoya View Post
    You're correct, thank you. I forget about the 7 successful rejoinings (or 8 if you count the now alternate timeline of Biggs the 3rd).
    well......
    Time travel shenanigans makes this confusing.
    But I'm not counting Biggs the 3rd although the intent was there.
    Because if we count intent, we're gonna have to add a lot more than 7

    Quote Originally Posted by dapperfaffer View Post
    No, thats basically it.

    The ancients, the convocation and a majority of ancients, sacrificed themselves to summon/keep Zodiark summoned to stop the Final Days triggered by Metion. All the sacrificed Ancients 'souls' are represented by all the faces in the cutscene with Zodiark, and even Emet when he transforms into Hades, and shows them as the representation of the masked faces. These are the ones that are actually dead, dead.
    All Hydaelunie, and her group of ancients, did was shatter everything from 1 singular existance into 14(13?), so that life would have the chance to continue unimpeeded by the Source experiencing the Final Days. So, no one was technically killed by queen crazy, as much as they were splintered into multiple fragments with one fragment on each of the 14 (or 13/however many) shards. And then life from those fragments would be 'new' life.
    And all of that occured because Hermes couldn't not into being emo for 5 minutes because muh existentialisms.
    So the way the story goes is, Hermes created Metion and she ventured forth into the unknown to find the meaning of life - which she concluded was death, and entropy as all things decayed.
    so Metion went crazy and decided all life has to end, and started the final days for the ancients, and no one could figure out what was causing it so they summoned Zodiark to protect them, the root of all corruption wanted to find another way so she sundered everything, and then magically the events of endwalker take place to put us the WoL in the path of direct opposition to stop the Final Days from occuring and to make it so that hyperpsycholyn could know what caused the Final Days, which somehow makes us 'worthy' and she could finally die by creating a time loop paradox that ensures life will always survive should the WoL fail.
    at least until Pandeamonium, the laboritory out of time, is resolved and a special person involved in that story arc resolves the time loop paradox and will then act as the next Hydaelyn. (personally I think anyways)
    and let's not forget that the sundering was also to give us a chance to actually defeating Meteion and actually dealing with the problem. Instead of what the Ascians decided to /couldn't do.
    (0)
    Last edited by hagare; 08-16-2022 at 06:58 PM.

  8. #417
    Player
    aveyond-dreams's Avatar
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    Q: I am interested to know how unsundered Ascians such as Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch avoided being kicked into 14 pieces by Hydaelyn
    A: As you think back to the text towards the end Emet-Selch did imply that Venat let him live unsundered. In fact Venat did intentionally leave a tiny floor in her Sundering attack - a crack that Emet-Selch can wiggle through. Sort of like…yes it was a powerful attack but intentionally chose to do it in this fashion. So we said this in the actual game as well which is when Hydaelyn did the attack, it was a really strong one. It was delivered at the limit of her power so she couldn’t really fine tune it. So as intentional as this was when she did that big massive light attack that sundered the world, she couldn’t guarantee that Emet-Selch would live and she was kind of making a gamble. In fact what happened was, at the time that Hydaelyn performed the sundering, Emet-Selch was with Lahabrea and Elidibus (the time he was already out of being Zodiark core so he’s a little bit different than his original but nevertheless he was there) so they ended up joining forces, and escaped to the rift without being Sundered. You may recall if you read Tales of the Shadows that Elidibus, when he came out of Zodiark he ended up losing some of his memories as well as some parts of himself and that’s sort of the point in Patch 5.3 and when he “dies” you sort of know that he lost a lot in the process as well just like Emet-Selch. So yeah, basically they worked together at that time and escaped being Sundered.
    She knew what would happen next. Thus, she enabled all that happened afterwards.
    (7)
    Авейонд-сны


  9. #418
    Player
    Kaurhz's Avatar
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    Asuka Kirai
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    Quote Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams View Post
    She knew what would happen next. Thus, she enabled all that happened afterwards.
    They still did those acts of their own free will. So regardless of what you want to think they are not absolved due to her 'enablement'
    (8)

  10. #419
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    aveyond-dreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaurhz View Post
    They still did those acts of their own free will. So regardless of what you want to think they are not absolved due to her 'enablement'
    And she used her own free will by not telling people what was going on, paving the way for the destruction of all but a handful of ancients. Nothing about this strikes me as a hero, and to have to sit through hearing about how wonderful she was in 6.2 isn't going to make for a palatable experience for those of us who do not think highly of her actions.

    It was her that started this. Nor are we asking for the Ascians to be "absolved" we want the game to acknowledge beyond a passing statement that what she did was wrong, and to stop propping her up as a benevolent goddess when she wasn't one.
    (9)
    Авейонд-сны


  11. #420
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    LisSquid's Avatar
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    Mother Kos
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    For people who watched the island livestream: was there anything about weather and possible biomes? I know the map is pretty solidly green, but I can dream.
    (1)

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