Live Letter Thoughts

[Anura]

Maybe they could write a story about it, then? Like those stories they write every (?) expansion. They could make a little series of it and try not to contradict what goes inside the game. Because, honestly, as much as I like Venat, I'd rather forget about time travel and AU, and I'd like the devs to forget about it too. Alexander was cool, I'm not a fan of the crystal tower and I absolutely hate what we received with EW. I don't want to see what they come up with next in regards to all this.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

It is. As per usual, my advice to you would include the typical suggestion of bookmarking this post. I know some posters really struggle to grasp concepts that have been explained to them many times already.

At any rate, here's the official definition of genocide:



The Sundering fits every single criteria. So...yes, it's an act of genocide. Hide it behind fluffy language all you like though if the protagonists wouldn't accept such a thing happening to their loved ones then there's really no reason for anybody else to either.

You are the most condescending person on here lol.

And I disagree that your definition matches. Venat was not aiming to cause harm, but to save.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

From Oxford.


Also for someone so tied up about it, you didn't seem to care too much when your beloved Garleans wanted to wipe the beast tribes off the planet.

[Knot_D]

Also for someone so tied up about it, you didn't seem to care too much when your beloved Garlean's wanted to wipe the beast tribes off the planet.

They probably gonna blame Venat for the beast tribe genocide

[Hurlstone]

I do find the genocide aspect of the debate... just... bonkers. I really never expected a situation here where simply liking a character leads to accusations of supporting mass murder. Where people acting the same when Emet-Selch first popped up? You know, founder of the multiple imperial-inclined nations that had genocidal themes and kept trying to ignight his own form of mass murder...

In a way, Hydaelyn and her part in the story felt like an adaption of the question “Why does God allow for suffering?” and I thought they did well showing her actions as a ‘necessary evil’ but thats just me. Would it have been nice for perhaps some of the Scions to perhaps disagree with her? Like Thancred, who lost Minfilia due to her unwavering faith in Hydaleyn? Sure, but who ever said the story was perfect?

But I feel once again this is off-topic... please feel free to ignore/jump on my words as if they are Target dummies and you a Dragoon eadger to test their new oGCDs. Whatever makes people happy. Now back on topic... Umm... I am looking foward to the new Reaper lady we will meet in 6.2! Hope she joins us in Trusts and stuff. Will be nice to have another female NPC who takes to the frontlines now that Lyse and (for now) Alisaie are absent from our crew. The 'female characters should be support' is a JRPG trope we should see less of, but one that FFXIV has mostly avoided thanks to them and others.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I do find the genocide aspect of the debate... just... bonkers. I really never expected a situation here where simply liking a character leads to accusations of supporting mass murder. Where people acting the same when Emet-Selch first popped up? You know, founder of the multiple imperial-inclined nations that had genocidal themes and kept trying to ignight his own form of mass murder...

In a way, Hydaelyn and her part in the story felt like an adaption of the question “Why does God allow for suffering?” and I thought they did well showing her actions as a ‘necessary evil’ but thats just me. Would it have been nice for perhaps some of the Scions to perhaps disagree with her? Like Thancred, who lost Minfilia due to her unwavering faith in Hydaleyn? Sure, but who ever said the story was perfect?

But I feel once again this is off-topic... please feel free to ignore/jump on my words as if they are Target dummies and you a Dragoon eadger to test their new oGCDs. Whatever makes people happy. Now back on topic... Umm... I am looking foward to the new Reaper lady we will meet in 6.2! Hope she joins us in Trusts and stuff. Will be nice to have another female NPC who takes to the frontlines now that Lyse and (for now) Alisaie are absent from our crew. The 'female characters should be support' is a JRPG trope we should see less of, but one that FFXIV has mostly avoided thanks to them and others.

To me it almost always feels like people trying to paint things in black and white, because they cant understand grey. Even though they say they love when characters and stories have grey moralities anyway and do a bunch of mental gymnastics over why Venat is the worst piece of scum ever, unlike our lord and saviors Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, Elidibus etc etc etc. I feel like there was at least some optional dialogue with the Scions where they did talk about Hyadaelyn's actions and how they ultimately felt about it but I could be wrong, but I somehow recall reading that.

Anyway back to 6.2 stuff, yeah I'm very excited for mystery reaper lady, and there's a good chance that she winds up being the elusive 1.0 fem-Meteor design people have been wanting finally being a canon character (due to how similar her face and hair looks from the short glimpses we see in the trailer).

[Denishia]

Until we learn more about her, the neatest factoid about reaper lady is that she seems to be deliberately modeled after the Female Hyur default, much the same as Ardbert and company. Refuse to read too much into that, and I doubt she'll get more screen time than Lyna, at best Yugiri - but I echo the sentiment of delight to have another female melee dps-focused NPC.

[Rulakir]

Things don't appear hopeful to me based on the trailer. Pandemonium looks like more "Ancients bad" while the Scions continue to simp for Hydaelyn* and we're probably going to move Heaven and Earth to rescue Azdaja because after 5k years of being stuck in the void there's no way that Vrtra should have to "forge ahead", that's only for other people not aligned with the WoL.

* This is why there's no such thing as Venat being as bad as the Ascians. I don't see Y'shtola handing the WoL Emet's memory crystal and saying who better to have it than the person he trusted with his legacy. This also implies, as I suspected, that the Omega chain was ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things unless they surprise me with dialog options to reject anything further to do with her.

Ultimately, as long as they continue to paint an entire people of somehow being deserving of genocide, the person responsible for it as some kind of hero, and the themes never applying to the WoL & Friends there's no way for me to take this team's storytelling seriously anymore.

[Hurlstone]

To me it almost always feels like people trying to paint things in black and white, because they cant understand grey. Even though they say they love when characters and stories have grey moralities anyway and do a bunch of mental gymnastics over why Venat is the worst piece of scum ever, unlike our lord and saviors Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, Elidibus etc etc etc. I feel like there was at least some optional dialogue with the Scions where they did talk about Hyadaelyn's actions and how they ultimately felt about it but I could be wrong, but I somehow recall reading that.

Could you be thinking of the 6.1 Omega quests? I do feel I should replay Endwalker sometime, be it on NG+ or an alt, to see if there are moments like that I missed. But yeah. I never felt to me that they tried to make Hydaelyn the saint some people think we see her as. I personally see the Ascian’s as great examples of villains who have suffered and genuinely believe they are in the right, but I also see Veant/Hyde as a character who had to make a horrible choice for the greater good. Sure, perhaps the writing does not equally assign blame or shame but… in the end, this is a Final Fantasy story. Often they do end up as pure ‘Good Vs Evil’ fabels (See the whole Light vs Chaos motif common in several games and spin-offs) and at least XIV has taken great steps to show that its really not so black and white. Its one of the reasons why I rank it so highly as a MMO and FF game.

At the very least declaring oneself a fan of Venat should not really be seen as somehow more immoral as calling oneself a fan of Ascians...

Anyway back to 6.2 stuff, yeah I'm very excited for mystery reaper lady, and there's a good chance that she winds up being the elusive 1.0 fem-Meteor design people have been wanting finally being a canon character (due to how similar her face and hair looks from the short glimpses we see in the trailer).

Until we learn more about her, the neatest factoid about reaper lady is that she seems to be deliberately modeled after the Female Hyur default, much the same as Ardbert and company. Refuse to read too much into that, and I doubt she'll get more screen time than Lyna, at best Yugiri - but I echo the sentiment of delight to have another female melee dps-focused NPC.

Wait, there was a possible fem-Meteor design!? I did not know that! That would be awesome... plus if thats true, it could mean she has a even more important role and connection to our WoL then I first thought. I have never been a fan of the idea that MMO/RPG media has a 'canon' archetype for a player character, but I do like how FFXIV can use this in regards to the Shards. I know, should not read too much into it all but what can I say? In deepest despair I prefer to look for the light everlasting. Bring on the 23th!

[thegreatonemal]

Things don't appear hopeful to me based on the trailer. Pandemonium looks like more "Ancients bad" while the Scions continue to simp for Hydaelyn* and we're probably going to move Heaven and Earth to rescue Azdaja because after 5k years of being stuck in the void there's no way that Vrtra should have to "forge ahead", that's only for other people not aligned with the WoL.

* This is why there's no such thing as Venat being as bad as the Ascians. I don't see Y'shtola handing the WoL Emet's memory crystal and saying who better to have it than the person he trusted with his legacy. This also implies, as I suspected, that the Omega chain was ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things unless they surprise me with dialog options to reject anything further to do with her.

Ultimately, as long as they continue to paint an entire people of somehow being deserving of genocide, the person responsible for it as some kind of hero, and the themes never applying to the WoL & Friends there's no way for me to take this team's storytelling seriously anymore.

Pretty sure he gave his sister up for dead, refusing to go look sooner because of the danger the void gate might pose to his people and the scions and his people have given him the okay to at least try and look for her but hey, that's only what the game presented and who needs that right.

Probably because we don't have it, Elidbus does and hes very dead and we have no idea what became of the crystals. Hell Eme'ts final little speech to us is the entire reason we even go looking for that treasure vault in the first place.

[ZavosEsperian]

So I come to this thread, and I see we have devolved into the genocide talk of whether Venat/Hydaelyn did commit the act itself.

At any rate, here's the official definition of genocide.

This definition above is the one used by, and is adhered to by, nations who signed and ratified the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of
Genocide, where this definition is Article II of that convention. By signatories alone, there are 152 nations on Earth that recognize this as the official definition of genocide by UN Convention.

And I disagree that your definition matches.

The definition you elected to pick seems cherry-picked to back your own argument and is an incomplete definition. Other dictionaries, such as Merriam-Webster, would contradict the definition of genocide you accept, as that definition states "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group". Note deliberate and systematic destruction does not require killing as an element for this to hold true, as you can destroy a group via re-education and sterilization.

To be more specific in Venat's case, her act via sundering Etherys and its peoples would quantify as genocide, since killing people is not a requirement in committing/perpetrating a genocide by most accepted definitions. What she did irrevocably split the Ancients' souls into smaller fragments and opening them up to life's hardships and suffering. By way of sundering the souls of the Ancients, she deliberately and systematically destroyed the Ancients as a race of people, thus the definition of genocide holds. Venat even admits to doing these acts. While the outcome turned out well for the Universe as a whole, it is still indeed a case of genocide. Whether you believe this to be justified is the part that is open to interpretation.

My own personal opinion on the matter would say no particular party in the story has the right to commit the act of genocide even if the outcome was positive. As such all of these parties would be in the wrong. Emet, Hermes (using the Meteia as the instrument of destruction), and Venat all perpetuated the act of genocide at some point in the story. Any empire that did as the definition from Article II states also committed genocide.

As far as MSQ related stuff is concerned, I'm interested on seeing where the story goes. I do actually want some clarification on Venat between where we encounter her in Elpis up to the point she elects to sunder Etherys. Without that information, it is difficult for me to ascertain all of the things Venat did or did not do up until that point, as I would assume she, as a former bearer of the Seat of Azem, would probably try to avoid the foretold destruction of her people caused by The Final Days and avoid making the decision to sunder Etherys without exhausting all other options.