Live Letter Thoughts

[LisSquid]

It's the Ancients that want to sacrifice themselves to save their world by primal, but Venat stopped them and sunder the world to stop their nonsense... (Correct me if I'm wrong)

From what was implied slightly (and we probably could have understood more if a certain zone wasn't 90% devoted to fan service) is that the influence of Meteion was suggesting the populace sacrifice half of themselves - again and again - to sustain Zodiark. While we see that Zodiark was holding it back just fine without more sacrifices, I sort of assumed it was that it was the direct result of the Song's influence causing people to double down until no one was left.

SE didn't clarify or justify it, but that was my final interpretation of the cinematic. Why Venat wasn't influenced and why the Unsundered wanted to continue the cycle (sacrifice all those on the shards) I have no idea.

[hagare]

From what was implied slightly (and we probably could have understood more if a certain zone wasn't 90% devoted to fan service) is that the influence of Meteion was suggesting the populace sacrifice half of themselves - again and again - to sustain Zodiark. While we see that Zodiark was holding it back just fine without more sacrifices, I sort of assumed it was that it was the direct result of the Song's influence causing people to double down until no one was left.

SE didn't clarify or justify it, but that was my final interpretation of the cinematic. Why Venat wasn't influenced and why the Unsundered wanted to continue the cycle (sacrifice all those on the shards) I have no idea.

that doesn't shake considering Zodiark specifically shielded the star from meteion.
Hence the "at last" when Big Z bit it.
So all the sacrifice idea are all their own.

[LisSquid]

that doesn't shake considering Zodiark specifically shielded the star from meteion.
Hence the "at last" when Big Z bit it.
So all the sacrifice idea are all their own.

Yeah, and it makes even less sense because he was holding it back regardless of more sacrifices or not. It's all half-baked.

[dapperfaffer]

It's the Ancients that want to sacrifice themselves to save their world by primal, but Venat stopped them and sunder the world to stop their nonsense... (Correct me if I'm wrong)

No, thats basically it.

The ancients, the convocation and a majority of ancients, sacrificed themselves to summon/keep Zodiark summoned to stop the Final Days triggered by Metion. All the sacrificed Ancients 'souls' are represented by all the faces in the cutscene with Zodiark, and even Emet when he transforms into Hades, and shows them as the representation of the masked faces. These are the ones that are actually dead, dead.
All Hydaelunie, and her group of ancients, did was shatter everything from 1 singular existance into 14(13?), so that life would have the chance to continue unimpeeded by the Source experiencing the Final Days. So, no one was technically killed by queen crazy, as much as they were splintered into multiple fragments with one fragment on each of the 14 (or 13/however many) shards. And then life from those fragments would be 'new' life.
And all of that occured because Hermes couldn't not into being emo for 5 minutes because muh existentialisms.
So the way the story goes is, Hermes created Metion and she ventured forth into the unknown to find the meaning of life - which she concluded was death, and entropy as all things decayed.
so Metion went crazy and decided all life has to end, and started the final days for the ancients, and no one could figure out what was causing it so they summoned Zodiark to protect them, the root of all corruption wanted to find another way so she sundered everything, and then magically the events of endwalker take place to put us the WoL in the path of direct opposition to stop the Final Days from occuring and to make it so that hyperpsycholyn could know what caused the Final Days, which somehow makes us 'worthy' and she could finally die by creating a time loop paradox that ensures life will always survive should the WoL fail.

at least until Pandeamonium, the laboritory out of time, is resolved and a special person involved in that story arc resolves the time loop paradox and will then act as the next Hydaelyn. (personally I think anyways)

[Alleo]

I've got a question since people are talking about genocide. Did Hydaelyn actually kill anyone when she split existence into 14 pieces? As I understood it, separated people, soul, body, and planet. Made 14 lesser versions of each in 14 different states of existence. If not, how could civilizations still remember ancients?

As far as we know the sundering did not kill because otherwise nobody would be alive. They may have messed up their memories though and some of their abilities. Of course for some, losing their memory could mean that the person is bascially death.

I mean I can see it from the angle of their memories because how a person acts is defined by what they have experienced. Taking that away could mean that they become a whole new person. But their bodies and mind are still theirs so is it truly death? (And that is with the assumption that they lost all memories)

I dont agree though if someone says that its genocide because the ancients got reduced in their powers. If I am in a accident and lose the functions of my legs, I am still me. And Dave is still Dave even if he cant just snap everything in existence anymore.

So I guess it comes down to what someone already sees as genocide? (Which means there will never be a solution to that)

The Ascians are more clear with that since they bascially do wipe out whole planets and kill its people.

[Kaurhz]

As far as we know the sundering did not kill because otherwise nobody would be alive. They may have messed up their memories though and some of their abilities. Of course for some, losing their memory could mean that the person is bascially death. So I guess it comes down to what someone already sees as genocide?

The Ascians are more clear with that since they bascially do wipe out whole planets and kill its people.

It's a philosophical (and albeit very pointless discussion to be had). Is it really death if you're 'reincarnated' effectively, or is the act more akin to maiming? depending on the perspective, you would effectively be taking Venat's action as infringing on:

(a) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(b) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Keep in mind that genocide is not just exclusively an act of killing.

It's equally the same as what Emet-Selch and co. were doing. In that, he didn't really view our lives, as... Being life... Just ghastly mockeries of the ancients. So does he really view that as genocidal? Probably not, but by his own admission he saw himself then as a megalomaniacal madman. It's just a matter of relativism. From the perspective of 'us' - It would absolutely be a genocidal act, either by intent to cause harm or by conspiracy to commit it. Conversely, from their perspective, it is just 'restoring the star to its rightful place, and humanity therein'. - It would be the same for the acts committed by Venat. From her perspective, it wouldn't necessarily constitute a genocidal act on the basis that she may have seen it as the only possible measure for ensuring life (and not just a circle of death on which they were bordering on). However, on behalf of those, she was subjecting it to, it was absolutely that very act of genocide, just simple on points a/b).

That being said if we look at this through a less philosophical lens then it was all down to Hermes and his nihilistic view of the world leading him to play the game of judge, jury, and executioner with the universe. So in reality he's inarguably the biggest perpetrator, then we have Venat pulling the act out of what she saw as a necessity, and well... Beyond that point, we just have the unsundered following by Venat's example.

Conclusion? They are all as bad as one another.

[aveyond-dreams]

Q: I am interested to know how unsundered Ascians such as Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch avoided being kicked into 14 pieces by Hydaelyn

A: As you think back to the text towards the end Emet-Selch did imply that Venat let him live unsundered. In fact Venat did intentionally leave a tiny floor in her Sundering attack - a crack that Emet-Selch can wiggle through. Sort of like…yes it was a powerful attack but intentionally chose to do it in this fashion. So we said this in the actual game as well which is when Hydaelyn did the attack, it was a really strong one. It was delivered at the limit of her power so she couldn’t really fine tune it. So as intentional as this was when she did that big massive light attack that sundered the world, she couldn’t guarantee that Emet-Selch would live and she was kind of making a gamble. In fact what happened was, at the time that Hydaelyn performed the sundering, Emet-Selch was with Lahabrea and Elidibus (the time he was already out of being Zodiark core so he’s a little bit different than his original but nevertheless he was there) so they ended up joining forces, and escaped to the rift without being Sundered. You may recall if you read Tales of the Shadows that Elidibus, when he came out of Zodiark he ended up losing some of his memories as well as some parts of himself and that’s sort of the point in Patch 5.3 and when he “dies” you sort of know that he lost a lot in the process as well just like Emet-Selch. So yeah, basically they worked together at that time and escaped being Sundered.

She knew what would happen next. Thus, she enabled all that happened afterwards.

[Kaurhz]

She knew what would happen next. Thus, she enabled all that happened afterwards.

They still did those acts of their own free will. So regardless of what you want to think they are not absolved due to her 'enablement'

[aveyond-dreams]

They still did those acts of their own free will. So regardless of what you want to think they are not absolved due to her 'enablement'

And she used her own free will by not telling people what was going on, paving the way for the destruction of all but a handful of ancients. Nothing about this strikes me as a hero, and to have to sit through hearing about how wonderful she was in 6.2 isn't going to make for a palatable experience for those of us who do not think highly of her actions.

It was her that started this. Nor are we asking for the Ascians to be "absolved" we want the game to acknowledge beyond a passing statement that what she did was wrong, and to stop propping her up as a benevolent goddess when she wasn't one.

[Kaurhz]

And she used her own free will by not telling people what was going on, paving the way for the destruction of all but a handful of ancients. Nothing about this strikes me as a hero, and to have to sit through hearing about how wonderful she was in 6.2 isn't going to make for a palatable experience for those of us who do not think highly of her actions.

It was her that started this. Nor are we asking for the Ascians to be "absolved" we want the game to acknowledge beyond a passing statement that what she did was wrong, and to stop propping her up as a benevolent goddess when she wasn't one.

Because it is all relativism, what you are effectively asking for, or at the very least advocating for with this sentiment is a very long history of indoctrination to effectively be annulled in a very short period of time. The world is vast so that isn't happening. They have already made it pretty clear through the story that it is no longer as simple as black and white and leaves it up to your own perception to determine who was right, and who was wrong. - The game doesn't need to tell you that.

We weren't exactly heading into Endwalker as "OOOO the big bad Zodiark" - This was practically tossed out the window courtesy of the lecture as provided by Emet-Selch in Rak'tika. The only basis for us going after him and subsequently viewing him as bad was just due to external factors (e.g., Zenos and Fandaniel wanting to suckle his power)

Edit: Just as I have said enablement from a third party factor is not an absolvent, otherwise ultimately the stick-pointing game would be, and should be put in the direction of Hermes.