Rescue is Griefing

[hydralus]

Is comparing rescue with griefing the best you can do?

Rescue is the only skill that has another player take control of someone's character away from them. Whether you accept it or not, it often negatively impacts peoplevs experience of the game. And when that happens, well they're gonna voice criticism...

Griefing is intentional. No I am comparing it to a much more common way that players impacts YOUR gameplay through no choice of your own. Or without your 'consent'.

Correct though in that it's the only player skill that takes control of another player. But there's other ways to take control of someone's character away from them. Getting them killed by double stacking two stackers comes to mind. And anyone can do that. We gonna ask them to remove such a feature because it could potentially get you killed "without your consent"?

As an aside I don't care if they remove rescue but these idiotic arguments are hard to read.

[Payadopa]

Making me read this is also griefing.

[Alaray]

i think it's fun

can be used for plenty of genuine, supportive moments as real utility to aid an encounter -- be it cancelling out of an LB animation, generating more uptime in some fights, pulling people into your healing ground aoes, etc... etc... as an ability it's prolly one of the more interesting ones still left in the game.

can be used to annihilate my friends

someone kill you once with it? ask them not to/roll with the punch/cry about it in a report/use arm's length if you think it's coming. three (real) options there.

if you're somehow getting rescue killed nonstop by randos then you're an outlier and just unlucky. that or you make a lotta unique players mad for some reason.

if gettin rescued at your detriment once in a blue moon genuinely pisses you off, idk, take a break tbqh. it's kind of the smallest of deals.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes.

However, on the few occasions when I've seen rescue used, I've never seen it used to grief in a PUG.

[Avatre]

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes.

However, on the few occasions when I've seen rescue used, I've never seen it used to grief in a PUG.

I have had it attempted on me once....but the healers were talking about it in party chat. Was during Ozma, I like to stand just off the edge of the platform in melee range(when Ozma goes pyramid mode you dodge the laser in that spot) and the healers said something about pulling me back, off the edge, towards the outer ring. Right as they both got behind me I popped Arms Length. Doesn't happen often(heck that was the first time someone tried to do something like that to me). The only other time I've had rescue used on me I did end up getting killed...because the healer didn't realize I was going to the other safe spot and ended up dragging me through the fire AoE on the second boss of Copied Factory.

[Midareyukki]

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes..

Do what I did. I knew the pug healer wasn't gonna see I was greeding, so I pressed Arm's Length to negate their Rescue and Shukuchi on time :P

It worked, I didn't die, probably got a very cross healer tho xD

I'd only do it if I knew what I was doing tho, so there's that disclaimer.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I'm of the mind that if a healer "rescues" me for no reason, especially if it's into an AoE, then that's the hill i'm destined to die on. Maybe that AST pulled a card that said i'll need to die for the rest of the team to live long and prosper, maybe they're just an asshat. I'm not gonna start stressing about it either way.

[Midareyukki]

Unpopular opinion, but if we're gonna argue about whether Rescue needs to exist or not, why don't we just admit that it's a veiled way of saying "People need to get good"?

With how many warps and mobility windows we currently have, there's almost no real reason to have healers pull people. Especially since it only works on one specific person anyway, that person can just as well move on their own. And if it's to "save people from death", just get good.

Because all that'd be left then would be the instances where it's actual griefing.

"Oh but I saved the run by pulling one guy and resolved a mechanic", yeah no, you took it upon yourself to save the run. That person should take it upon themself to do the same by using their own kit. Benign effect, sure, but it was still not your responsability. That person should not be hand-held, they should learn to resolve the mechanic on their own. It's only good for them and future groups they feature in.

Probably a bad take, but sometimes people do need to be told to stop relying on others for stuff they can very well do on their own. It's rare that Rescue is ACTUALLY required.

[Skivvy]

Unpopular opinion, but if we're gonna argue about whether Rescue needs to exist or not, why don't we just admit that it's a veiled way of saying "People need to get good"?

With how many warps and mobility windows we currently have, there's almost no real reason to have healers pull people. Especially since it only works on one specific person anyway, that person can just as well move on their own. And if it's to "save people from death", just get good.

Because all that'd be left then would be the instances where it's actual griefing.

"Oh but I saved the run by pulling one guy and resolved a mechanic", yeah no, you took it upon yourself to save the run. That person should take it upon themself to do the same by using their own kit. Benign effect, sure, but it was still not your responsability. That person should not be hand-held, they should learn to resolve the mechanic on their own. It's only good for them and future groups they feature in.

Probably a bad take, but sometimes people do need to be told to stop relying on others for stuff they can very well do on their own. It's rare that Rescue is ACTUALLY required.

Welcome to healers! We're the babysitters of the game.

You have yours leveled, so you probably know how dull runs can be as a healer when people run things perfectly. It's almost to the point where they could get rid of healers and just rework the other jobs to add more self-sustain and call it a day....assuming people were on top of things*.

But thankfully (?) we all like to make mistakes now and then, granted some people more often than others. If we're getting into the argument that people need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, to take it to the extreme, why should we bother healing them in the first place if they took avoidable damage? Obviously we should all strive towards self-improvement, and sometimes a lesson does stick best after a massive failure, but as a healer, our kit is there to try and keep things running smoothly. I know people love to claim that no one ever listens to a word said in party chat, but plenty of people do, and I'd recommend people giving that a shot now and then.

I do agree that it's rare that rescue is truly needed.



*I'm gonna assume healers still have a purpose for ultimates/savage/etc. :3

[Midareyukki]

Welcome to healers! We're the babysitters of the game.

You have yours leveled, so you probably know how dull runs can be as a healer when people run things perfectly. It's almost to the point where they could get rid of healers and just rework the other jobs to add more self-sustain and call it a day....assuming people were on top of things*.

But thankfully (?) we all like to make mistakes now and then, granted some people more often than others. If we're getting into the argument that people need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, to take it to the extreme, why should we bother healing them in the first place if they took avoidable damage? Obviously we should all strive towards self-improvement, and sometimes a lesson does stick best after a massive failure, but as a healer, our kit is there to try and keep things running smoothly. I know people love to claim that no one ever listens to a word said in party chat, but plenty of people do, and I'd recommend people giving that a shot now and then.

I do agree that it's rare that rescue is truly needed.

Except what you're describing is the healer's own job description: to heal missing health and keeping people alive. If a stooge does land on The Bad™, then it's annoying but it's part of our job as a healer. It's literally the difference between us and DPS. Unfortunate effects, but that's why we're there.

We're NOT responsible for the person being hit in the first place, nor should we be made to be. You can argue that it's as much a healing tool as a shield tbh, you're preventing damage, but it's already been proven to be incredibly intrusive whereas shields are not. And worse, similar stuff exists in other peoples' kit, such as Second Wind and personal shields, but they don't deny our existence. Only cover for one singular hit. The use of rescue, on the other hand, negates there needing to be mobility tools. After all, why bother having Shukuchi or Aetherial Manip if you can just nag the healer to adjust for you?

That isn't a logic extreme you can extrapolate out of what I said, you're conflating two ideas and snowballing out of it based only on the idea that we're there to babysit.

You're only there to babysit as much as you want, because it's not up to you to rescue every single person and know exactly when it's okay or not to pull them. You are there to be a healer when required and deal damage when not. Other people should pull their weight just as much as you do. If I wanted to babysit, I'd start charging for it.

Otherwise, yeah, it's a double standard. We're not responsible for people doing well and keeping themselves alive. There's a limit to what we do when faced with what other people can do. If a tank can use cooldowns, why the hell do I have to go out of my way and strain myself for someone who doesn't want to meet me halfway? Just use cooldowns, move out of the bad. Accidents happen, and those are stuff I can understand... but they shoudl not be on me for failing to pull you away from those accidents.

Keep in mind also that you're only saying that, that it's a part of our job as healers to do so, simply because Rescue exists. Prior to SB, this mindset did not exist. It was created only bc of the skill itself, concentrating responsability on the healer and making people forget that no, it's not our job to save a guy from going to the red puddle. They should know better, that's part of the game.

Though I guess I feel this way because I'm angry at what happened to me in savage before. Being told that the whole group needed to adjust around one person that refused to learn the game and improve as to not be a detriment to the group. And would then throw a tantrum when called out on it. It isn't our job to bend over backwards for someone who doesn't want to meet us halfway. Which hurt doubly so when I did my best to overcome my own physical health to play with my groups, finding tricks and roundabout ways to handle situations, only to then see someone not do the same and have everyone adjust to her alone. It just isn't fair to 7 other people; one thing is "I struggle with this", another thing is "I won't even try".

I don't think Rescue is griefing, but it does remove agency from people and excuses something that really just shouldn't be excused. And when used incorrectly, it can be quite bitter.