MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Midareyukki]

Ablegamers.

One of their people, and Ive seen footage, is a kid using a controller who had NO HANDS AT ALL.

Sweet jesus on a corn cob, I said disabilities or issues in general, not Taskmaster All-Stars ._.

[Eraden]

^this. I am 52, legally blind, and have severe coordination issues. I raid savage, but it takes me a while to learn the fights in such a way that I can react to the mechanics a few milliseconds before they go out. I have to react before they go out or I will get hit by them. Making MSQ content too much more difficult would frustrate me to the point that I would not want to keep trying.

The biggest problem I have with people calling for the MSQs to be made more difficult is that most of these people are not even asking for OPTIONAL harder modes. They want it to be made harder for EVERYONE. One has to wonder why these people feel the need to make things more difficult for everyone. For the few who have come to this thread to put in a word for OPTIONAL harder modes, I can get behind this. It gives those who want more of a challenge an opportunity to have such a challenge while at the same time, allows those of us who might be struggling from time to time with current content to be able to keep playing.

[Packetdancer]

Yes yes, the mythical blind quadriplegic 150-year-old Maasai grandmother with a 5kbps internet connection for whom all MSQ content must be designed around.

I've never met a disabled person who plays this game and claims the MSQ would be impossible if they added a sprinkle of gameplay engagement.

A friend of mine had severe nerve damage to his hands, sustained during his military service; it made it incredibly difficult for him to type coherently, much less play games at a high level of effectiveness. He didn't complain that games needed to be easier, but he also couldn't entirely conceal how unhappy it made him to not be able to play alongside his friends. Between gaming alongside him, and having a friend who was largely deaf (and thus found it frustrating when the only clue to a mechanic in a game was an audio cue), I found my approach to game design changing.

Sadly, this was well after I'd left the industry professionally (crunch time and ever-present background sexism did not make for my favorite work environment), but I still do game dev in my spare time, and the lessons I took from watching what they found troublesome in games have absolutely impacted how I design things.

And here's the thing: accessibility doesn't have to mean simplicity. SQEX seems to be treating it that way, unfortunately, but that's hardly a requirement.

As an example, for my friend who had the nerve damage, I started writing a tool that let him bind multiple keys to a single key, meaning he could have—for instance, ~, 1, and 2 all bound to the same action, so that if his hand seized up, he could still hit the action he meant to. It didn't mean that the game had to be made easier, it just meant it needed to be accessible to him.

For the mostly-deaf friend, I made an add-on for a game which hooked the audio playback and had a table of audio cues; if it played a specific audio cue, the add-on would put a text description on screen. That didn't make the game any easier—the on-screen text wasn't anything more than someone who could hear properly would be able to tell for themselves by just, y'know, hearing the audio cue—but it made the content more accessible to her.

And while this isn't something I ever had to write an add-on for, I do know of folks who have vision problems, who in this game find the Ivalice raids—which have a lot of audio cues associated with mechanics—easier than others, precisely because of those audio cues. Or find Leviathan EX easier than some extremes because the water-spout noise will be played in a spatially appropriate manner, meaning you can react to where it is just by the audio.

Accessibility doesn't mean the game needs to be easier, just that it needs to not actively work against the players.

Unfortunately, this game's accessibility is... somewhat lacking, which means the devs appear to intend simplicity of any combat in the MSQ itself to serve in place of accessibility options. This is not what I'd call ideal, on either side of the equation; I would bet you there are plenty of people who struggle with higher-difficulty content in this game who would love to not struggle with it, if the game would just, y'know, meet them halfway on how it actually functions.

(Or at the very least wouldn't make a savage raid that consisted of red and orange mechanics on an orange and yellow field, with some extra red and orange and yellow thrown in. You don't even have to be vision-impaired—or even colorblind—to feel like that's a recipe for eye-strain.)

And sure, accessibility options wouldn't improve things for every player that might otherwise have issues with more complex mechanics... but the number who it would would be a damn sight more than zero, I promise you.

Unfortunately, that's not where we are; right now, the game's primary accessibility consideration appears to be "very forgiving content in the MSQ". And as long as that's the state of things, it means that any suggestion that the MSQ needs to be made more challenging is likely to be taken by some percentage of the populace as saying "we want you gone", even if that's not the intent... because, unfortunately, that might be the effect. Intent notwithstanding.

[Packetdancer]

The biggest problem I have with people calling for the MSQs to be made more difficult is that most of these people are not even asking for OPTIONAL harder modes. They want it to be made harder for EVERYONE. One has to wonder why these people feel the need to make things more difficult for everyone. For the few who have come to this thread to put in a word for OPTIONAL harder modes, I can get behind this. It gives those who want more of a challenge an opportunity to have such a challenge while at the same time, allows those of us who might be struggling from time to time with current content to be able to keep playing.

My own stance on this notwithstanding—though I think my post above this one makes it pretty clear where I fall in this debate—I will note I think part of the reason people argue for the MSQ difficulty being raised just flat-out, rather than optional harder content, is the idea that it would provide more encouragement—and more opportunity—for people to hone their skills on the way to endgame. Because, everything else aside, people aren't wrong that the MSQ's current difficulty level does not actually require people learn how their job works to any real degree. Freestyle SAM, Ice Mage BLM... playing like that won't actually prevent anyone from getting through the MSQ.

But if people then want to try higher-end content, there's not a lot of ground between "as long as you push some buttons you'll probably be okay" and "welcome to Extreme Trials!" The closest thing we have to an intermediate difficulty between the two is stuff like critical engagements in Bozja, and even that was enough of a step up from MSQ difficulty to give some folks a hard time. Not because they couldn't do it, but because the MSQ did not prepare them to do so. And we've seen a lot of people on these forums get frustrated because they feel like there's this giant gap to jump to get from the forgiving nature of the MSQ to even something as approachable as extreme trials.

No, I don't think the MSQ difficulty should be ramped up. Even if I would really love more content in this game that has some bite to it. (Fingers crossed for the Criterion dungeons?)

But I will admit I can also see why people would argue from the standpoint that it should be.

[Eraden]

My own stance on this notwithstanding—though I think my post above this one makes it pretty clear where I fall in this debate—I will note I think part of the reason people argue for the MSQ difficulty being raised just flat-out, rather than optional harder content, is the idea that it would provide more encouragement—and more opportunity—for people to hone their skills on the way to endgame. Because, everything else aside, people aren't wrong that the MSQ's current difficulty level does not actually require people learn how their job works to any real degree. Freestyle SAM, Ice Mage BLM... playing like that won't actually prevent anyone from getting through the MSQ.

But if people then want to try higher-end content, there's not a lot of ground between "as long as you push some buttons you'll probably be okay" and "welcome to Extreme Trials!" The closest thing we have to an intermediate difficulty between the two is stuff like critical engagements in Bozja, and even that was enough of a step up from MSQ difficulty to give some folks a hard time. Not because they couldn't do it, but because the MSQ did not prepare them to do so. And we've seen a lot of people on these forums get frustrated because they feel like there's this giant gap to jump to get from the forgiving nature of the MSQ to even something as approachable as extreme trials.

No, I don't think the MSQ difficulty should be ramped up. Even if I would really love more content in this game that has some bite to it. (Fingers crossed for the Criterion dungeons?)

But I will admit I can also see why people would argue from the standpoint that it should be.

The issue for some of us is that we CAN'T get much better than we currently are. No amount of trying to push those of us who are having difficulty with some of the content, due to our conditions, is going to make us better. Again, I have no problem with optional harder modes being implemented but if some of the people pushing for a non-optional increase in MSQ difficulty think that it is going to make us better, they simply do not understand our situations. All it will do is drive us out of the game.

[Dzian]

The biggest problem I have with people calling for the MSQs to be made more difficult is that most of these people are not even asking for OPTIONAL harder modes. They want it to be made harder for EVERYONE. One has to wonder why these people feel the need to make things more difficult for everyone. For the few who have come to this thread to put in a word for OPTIONAL harder modes, I can get behind this. It gives those who want more of a challenge an opportunity to have such a challenge while at the same time, allows those of us who might be struggling from time to time with current content to be able to keep playing.

So yeah I do feel it needs to be harder for everyone. As I've said before the difficulty should at least be at a level that gives the story credibity... ultra cataclysmic world ending situation should not be beaten with a proverbial b**** slap.because of how easy it is.

On the flip side everyone who's crying out against it seems to think difficulty is this sheer vertical cliff where there are only 2 levels.. faceroll or brutal savage. There's a massive space in between where they could tune things..

I also feel and I think I said this earlier too. That any time msq content has been considered too difficult. Its never the fact the content is actually difficult and always the fact that the game does a terrible job of telling or teaching players what they are expected to do..

Nearly every quest that has been a road block has been the same.. not difficult just badly explained.

[Eraden]

So yeah I do feel it needs to be harder for everyone. As I've said before the difficulty should at least be at a level that gives the story credibity... ultra cataclysmic world ending situation should not be beaten with a proverbial b**** slap.because of how easy it is.

On the flip side everyone who's crying out against it seems to think difficulty is this sheer vertical cliff where there are only 2 levels.. faceroll or brutal savage. There's a massive space in between where they could tune things..

I also feel and I think I said this earlier too. That any time msq content has been considered too difficult. Its never the fact the content is actually difficult and always the fact that the game does a terrible job of telling or teaching players what they are expected to do..

Nearly every quest that has been a road block has been the same.. not difficult just badly explained.

You are an example of those who I mentioned who simply do not understand the situations of those of us who struggle from time to time on the MSQs because of our conditions. Please understand that for some of us, we really are at our physical limits when we have difficulties and it has very little to do with the game teaching us how to play. Why must these MSQs be tuned higher for everyone? Do you not see that you are operating under a false assumption by assuming that harder content is somehow going to make everyone become better at playing the game? If you really want more challenging content then by all means ask for more optional content made to suit that desire. Please do not try to force those of us who do have occasional difficulties to have to conform to your standards. If I ever find myself struggling while in a group, due to my condition getting the best of me, I will apologize and bow out if the group is not happy with my efforts. I would appreciate not being chased completely away from the core game, however.

[VelKallor]

Why must these MSQs be tuned higher for everyone?

They dont. The tuning is fine as is

If these people want harder content, there are options for them..this is just gatekeeping so only "the worthy" gets to see content. Bear in mind that this "forum" is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1%..despite their claims "they speak for all players"..which they dont.

Aveyond's comments that Minfilia was "widely disliked" is a classic example of this attitude.

MSQ is fine as is, it is tuned so it can be completed by a wide range of skill levels, it is designed that way because story MSQ content is the BACKBONE of the game..and to be blunt, the MSQ costs a massive amount to create so it would be the height of IDIOCY to tune it so as to exclude players..in a sense this is reminiscent of the kicking and screaming by WOW raiders when LFR was started..'

HOW DARE more people get to see content they pay for..the NERVE, didnt they know this is for "only the worthy?"

Blizzards response?

This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care

I havent laughed that hard in a very long time..and yes, I was there that day.

[vetch]

Unfortunately, that's not where we are; right now, the game's primary accessibility consideration appears to be "very forgiving content in the MSQ". And as long as that's the state of things, it means that any suggestion that the MSQ needs to be made more challenging is likely to be taken by some percentage of the populace as saying "we want you gone", even if that's not the intent... because, unfortunately, that might be the effect. Intent notwithstanding.

Unluckily the viewpoints of "I wanted this to be more difficult because it didn't contain enough pushback and release to give me catharsis" and "I can't play this if it becomes any more difficult" are necessarily opposed. To the former group, suggesting that the MSQ remain easy is suggesting that the MSQ remain boring and disappointing, and it's not inherently malicious toward the latter group to bring it up (no matter how whiny and loud individual people in the first group might get about it).

Also exacerbating the problem is that a majority of the repeatable group combat content added to the game ends up being MSQ content.

[Ivtrix]

The issue for some of us is that we CAN'T get much better than we currently are. No amount of trying to push those of us who are having difficulty with some of the content, due to our conditions, is going to make us better. Again, I have no problem with optional harder modes being implemented but if some of the people pushing for a non-optional increase in MSQ difficulty think that it is going to make us better, they simply do not understand our situations. All it will do is drive us out of the game.

I’m more willing to believe this is not actually limitations but more so a mental block holding yourself back. Do you really feel like you have reached your peak performance in the game?