MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Supersnow845]

That's our static's SAM. They claimed to having a hard time hitting Feint cause they're too focused doing their rotation, even when it's not within their burst/reopener windows.

I'd press that Feint for them if I could.

I honestly oscillate between these two mindsets

-dps should have more responsibility
-dps should have no responsibility because they will shirk it anyway

[LisSquid]

snip

I was actually going to chime in about the ye olde threads about MCH and ping. How people came to those threads with the same "those are niche attitudes" in response.

[Bobby66]

The main issue is that while I do feel SE is catering the more causal player base, we do have to take into account that even now with the limited dps tool set of healers and limited required heals many still do find it overwhelming. I am willing to bet if we are honest with ourselves we most likely have ran into far more under performing healers than ones that know what they are generally doing. That is just the nature of games like this for the most player the average skill level of players will be on the lower end of the spectrum. As a friend once told me do not install ACT, not because it is against the ToS but because you really do not want to see how bad the general community is when it comes to playing ones role.

The real issue SE has is finding that balance between enjoyment and accessibility. It is not an easy to obtain, this is my issue with the mindset of trying to make every class within a role function more or less the same. SE needs to branch out and accept that certain job comps will not be meta and that is okay. They should expand on the niche for each job give them something they are good at when it comes to healers as an example. Make a more
"complex" healer with a more robust DPS tool kit and make one that is like the current healer. Sure for the most part the one that does more damage will be the more "meta" pick but at the very least give people the option. Personally I had a blast with old cleric stance I wish it was still an option even if it was not an optimal one I would still play with that style simply due to my own personal enjoyment.

I think the idea of trying to please everyone is hurting SE the most cause generally they really have this idea that they think they know what players want, but are kind of out of touch.

[Supersnow845]

The main issue is that while I do feel SE is catering the more causal player base, we do have to take into account that even now with the limited dps tool set of healers and limited required heals many still do find it overwhelming. I am willing to bet if we are honest with ourselves we most likely have ran into far more under performing healers than ones that know what they are generally doing. That is just the nature of games like this for the most player the average skill level of players will be on the lower end of the spectrum. As a friend once told me do not install ACT, not because it is against the ToS but because you really do not want to see how bad the general community is when it comes to playing ones role.

The real issue SE has is finding that balance between enjoyment and accessibility. It is not an easy to obtain, this is my issue with the mindset of trying to make every class within a role function more or less the same. SE needs to branch out and accept that certain job comps will not be meta and that is okay. They should expand on the niche for each job give them something they are good at when it comes to healers as an example. Make a more
"complex" healer with a more robust DPS tool kit and make one that is like the current healer. Sure for the most part the one that does more damage will be the more "meta" pick but at the very least give people the option. Personally I had a blast with old cleric stance I wish it was still an option even if it was not an optimal one I would still play with that style simply due to my own personal enjoyment.

I think the idea of trying to please everyone is hurting SE the most cause generally they really have this idea that they think they know what players want, but are kind of out of touch.

That’s honestly why I don’t understand why we got rid of the old healer balance, site cleric stance was a problem for all healers but if they wanted a “5.0 healer” WHM already existed, it had literally one more DOT and an extra oGCD compared to now, they could have just added SGE as another WHM level healer and left SCH and AST alone, sure they would need to be balanced as SCH absolutely dominated for most of 2 and 3.x but I don’t think their design philosophy was wrong

[Deveryn]

The main issue is that while I do feel SE is catering the more causal player base, we do have to take into account that even now with the limited dps tool set of healers and limited required heals many still do find it overwhelming. I am willing to bet if we are honest with ourselves we most likely have ran into far more under performing healers than ones that know what they are generally doing. That is just the nature of games like this for the most player the average skill level of players will be on the lower end of the spectrum. As a friend once told me do not install ACT, not because it is against the ToS but because you really do not want to see how bad the general community is when it comes to playing ones role.

The real issue SE has is finding that balance between enjoyment and accessibility. It is not an easy to obtain, this is my issue with the mindset of trying to make every class within a role function more or less the same. SE needs to branch out and accept that certain job comps will not be meta and that is okay. They should expand on the niche for each job give them something they are good at when it comes to healers as an example. Make a more
"complex" healer with a more robust DPS tool kit and make one that is like the current healer. Sure for the most part the one that does more damage will be the more "meta" pick but at the very least give people the option. Personally I had a blast with old cleric stance I wish it was still an option even if it was not an optimal one I would still play with that style simply due to my own personal enjoyment.

I think the idea of trying to please everyone is hurting SE the most cause generally they really have this idea that they think they know what players want, but are kind of out of touch.

Even players don't know what players want.

I have a friend that used to run ACT (and probably some other shit). I managed to talk them out of it and guess what? They improved. There's such a thing as having too much info dance across the screen and tell you what to do. This is what's really dumbing people down. Those people are then doing nothing to really help those honestly trying to learn the game.

[Bobby66]

Even players don't know what players want.

I have a friend that used to run ACT (and probably some other shit). I managed to talk them out of it and guess what? They improved. There's such a thing as having too much info dance across the screen and tell you what to do. This is what's really dumbing people down. Those people are then doing nothing to really help those honestly trying to learn the game.

Are you saying information in itself is what is dumbing people down? I mean I can get if someone has a hard time focusing and losing their baring so to speak they would perform worse but isn't that a personal problem and not an information one?

I am kind of lost at this point if you care to expand I would be grateful.

[Dzian]

The main issue is that while I do feel SE is catering the more causal player base, we do have to take into account that even now with the limited dps tool set of healers and limited required heals many still do find it overwhelming. I am willing to bet if we are honest with ourselves we most likely have ran into far more under performing healers than ones that know what they are generally doing. That is just the nature of games like this for the most player the average skill level of players will be on the lower end of the spectrum. As a friend once told me do not install ACT, not because it is against the ToS but because you really do not want to see how bad the general community is when it comes to playing ones role.

I often think this is just sheer laziness.. when you can underperform to such a huge margin and still succeed in clearing the content. Then what reason is there to do more... it just promotes laziness.

It's like making a sandwich sure you can make the effort to get the perfect coverage of fillings or mayo or cut the perfect triangular slices or you can just slap it all on.. still taste the same.. so all that extra effort is just a waste.. and with how low the bar is set in xiv that same mentality seems all to common.

A somewhat extreme example. Would be making a full party but everyone has only one skill on there hot bar. Just make it an aoe. So a warrior could have overpower
Blackmage blizzard 2.
Monk rock breaker.
Healer medica.

With absolutely no other skills on there hotbars that 4 man party could clear so much content. It might take longer but they'd clear it successfully.

The game promotes laziness with the bar set as low as it is. So it's really no surprise many players are lazy.

[Jojoya]

Even players don't know what players want.

That's because players aren't a hive mind. What I want probably isn't what you want, and someone else isn't going to want what either of us want.

What someone wants also changes over time. I'm not the same person I was a decade ago. My interests have changed.

Then there's social media and peer pressure. Some people convince themselves that because they see a lot of other players say you should want something, they decide they want that something, too (then spend a lot of time complaining about it).

SE is stuck in the middle of all this because they're trying to figure out how to attract players to a role that not many want to do and frequently holds back group formation. It's a difficult balancing act when you've got players at a large range of skill levels doing different types of content.

With different types of content on my mind, here's something that might be worth discussing: should healers in high end content be given a modified toolkit to use just as jobs in PvP get modified toolkits? It's not going to be helpful with MSQ and normal difficulty content since SE has to design for less skilled players. But it could be an opening to make things more interesting for healers out for a challenge.

I often think this is just sheer laziness.. when you can underperform to such a huge margin and still succeed in clearing the content. Then what reason is there to do more... it just promotes laziness.

It's a game. Most of us are being lazy by playing it instead of doing more productive things with our time. It's rather foolish to expect people to put a lot of effort into improving when they're present because they're being lazy.

The desire to improve has to come from within. The percentage of people interested in rising to meet a challenge in a situation where there is no potential harm to person or property is pretty small. Making things increasing harder in a game generally does not get people to improve. It gets them to give up and find a different game to play once they hit a barrier beyond their base skill cap.

A standalone single player game can afford to be designed that way. The game company got its money with the original sale so it's up to the player how far they go with the game.

MMOs can't afford to be designed the same way. They're far more expensive to make and maintain (why you rarely see MMOs being created by small indie developers). They need to be getting recurring revenue from a large player base and that means having to design around a large range of skill. Base content needs to be accessible to as many as possible so they will continue to pay.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I often think this is just sheer laziness.. when you can underperform to such a huge margin and still succeed in clearing the content. Then what reason is there to do more... it just promotes laziness.

It's like making a sandwich sure you can make the effort to get the perfect coverage of fillings or mayo or cut the perfect triangular slices or you can just slap it all on.. still taste the same.. so all that extra effort is just a waste.. and with how low the bar is set in xiv that same mentality seems all to common.

A somewhat extreme example. Would be making a full party but everyone has only one skill on there hot bar. Just make it an aoe. So a warrior could have overpower
Blackmage blizzard 2.
Monk rock breaker.
Healer medica.

With absolutely no other skills on there hotbars that 4 man party could clear so much content. It might take longer but they'd clear it successfully.

The game promotes laziness with the bar set as low as it is. So it's really no surprise many players are lazy.

Being a waste of skin is a personal choice. The bar being low is of no consequence. People are just garbage.

When you think about it, the bar being low should promote a more level playing field since even people with some personal limitations should be able to play well enough. The fact many people are a burden regardless of that is....concerning.

Must be a "gamer" thing where you pay to play a game and then avoid playing it at all costs.

[Deveryn]

Are you saying information in itself is what is dumbing people down? I mean I can get if someone has a hard time focusing and losing their baring so to speak they would perform worse but isn't that a personal problem and not an information one?

I am kind of lost at this point if you care to expand I would be grateful.

It depends on what it is. There's already plenty of info showing on the screen without any extras. Adding more and more becomes detrimental. The most extreme case would be the latest cheat videos that have been making the rounds. There's a point with all these add-ons, where the game is essentially played for you and there's no requirement to think, just go where you're told and never really learn anything. This not only dulls the player but any satisfaction they might get for properly winning an encounter. The fact that people are cheating and still failing says enough.