MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[vetch]

Personally, I don't think the MSQ content needs to be made harder. I disagree with the sentiment that it would force players to get better, Nidhogg, Shinryu and Titania didn't force players to get better, all they did was spawn endless complaints on the forums and social media.

However, I would love to see alliance raids, extreme trials and the earlier floors of savage get some teeth back again, those are all optional and wouldn't affect people who don't want to do them, they could stand to be harder and bridge the wide gap between the ease of the MSQ content and the difficulty of savage/ultimate.

YoshiP, in a June 2021 interview with Destructoid: "... content like FFXIV’s alliance raids are great because it allows for players to have fun taking on challenges in a larger group of multiple parties, which lowers the amount of personal responsibility for each player for a more relaxed experience. It is also an opportunity for us as a development team to invest resources on a larger scale to create epic battles with grandiose presentations. Through this, players who aren’t as skilled at battle content can experience both story and battles, while also raising their gear item level through the equipment rewards from the alliance raids. This content is also meaningful for players that have been taking a break from the game for a little while, as it can help them get back in the groove when it comes to battle content, and also catch up on obtaining better equipment."

https://www.destructoid.com/ffxiv-pr...ing-from-home/

[HyoMinPark]

Personally, I don't think the MSQ content needs to be made harder. I disagree with the sentiment that it would force players to get better, Nidhogg, Shinryu and Titania didn't force players to get better, all they did was spawn endless complaints on the forums and social media.

And I believe a huge reason for this is because these fights aren’t literal pushovers like the rest of the MSQ content in this game. They aren’t ridiculously hard by any stretch like people enjoy saying they are; but they are more difficult than, say, Thordan at the end of HW. He was an absolute joke. At release you could stand in his AOEs and not die. Now, I could eat everything and barely walk away with a scratch. It was incredibly underwhelming as a new player who wasn’t even into anything in the high-end or hardcore scene. Shinryu, by comparison, actually felt like an expansion boss. Coming from someone who was still, more or less, a casual back then.

If the MSQ actually had a gradual curve in difficulty progressing through the levels (not anything insane or Dark Souls level, but mild and gradual), I don’t think the complaints would be nearly as high. These fights are “spikes” in terms of the level of challenge, and there are people who are perfectly abled that simply throw their hands up in the air if they wipe. All because this game has spent 60+ levels conditioning them that everything is super easy and you can basically smash your face on your keyboard and win. And it’s unfortunate that the response changed from “try harder” (Yoshida’s response to cries for Final Steps of Faith, Weeping City, and Dun Scaith nerfs) to things ending up nerfed because people complain (Thundergod Cid in Orbonne Monestary—you know, in the optional content people don’t have to do if they don’t want to).

[Amenara]

And I believe a huge reason for this is because these fights aren’t literal pushovers like the rest of the MSQ content in this game. They aren’t ridiculously hard by any stretch like people enjoy saying they are; but they are more difficult than, say, Thordan at the end of HW. He was an absolute joke. At release you could stand in his AOEs and not die. Now, I could eat everything and barely walk away with a scratch. It was incredibly underwhelming as a new player who wasn’t even into anything in the high-end or hardcore scene. Shinryu, by comparison, actually felt like an expansion boss. Coming from someone who was still, more or less, a casual back then.

If the MSQ actually had a gradual curve in difficulty progressing through the levels (not anything insane or Dark Souls level, but mild and gradual), I don’t think the complaints would be nearly as high. These fights are “spikes” in terms of the level of challenge, and there are people who are perfectly abled that simply throw their hands up in the air if they wipe. All because this game has spent 60+ levels conditioning them that everything is super easy and you can basically smash your face on your keyboard and win. And it’s unfortunate that the response changed from “try harder” (Yoshida’s response to cries for Final Steps of Faith, Weeping City, and Dun Scaith nerfs) to things ending up nerfed because people complain (Thundergod Cid in Orbonne Monestary—you know, in the optional content people don’t have to do if they don’t want to).

I think that is what my complaint with the MSQ is. It is spikes in difficulty that are followed up by easy content with no encouragement to try a little harder. The difficulty curve is all over the place which is the underlying issue.

[ForteNightshade]

Sounds like a reason to nerf Tank damage and mitigation, not to make dungeon instances harder.

< yes, I know. Tank damage and mitigation are so high-end instances don't wipe. Just don't use them as examples of the need for 'harder' MSQ content then >

So your solution is to neuter another role or intentionally not play it properly than to actually ask for content being tuned around the trinity this game prompts? Great idea. How about instead we nerf all the tank, DPS included. After all, if mobs live longer that will also fix the problem.

I'll never understand this averse to wipes people seem to have. Who cares if you die? You don't lose EXP, gil or literally anything. That all being said, I do actually think tanks need their mitigation scaled back. Healers also need less healing abilities and the content as a whole should be tuned to where every job serves a purpose.

[ADarklore]

Let me say that OP made it sound like all players want to play EX or Savage, but I believe the reality is, the majority of casual players DO NOT. FFXIV has grown in leaps and bounds, not because of difficulty, but because of it's increasing soloability of the MSQ. MMO no longer means "group" and hasn't for years, but some players cling to that outdated definition... currently MMO simply means a massive number of players playing the same game online at the same time. This is why most MMOs are switching to make the game more solo friendly and easier for casual players- because those are the majority of players. I know I play MMOs not for the 'group' aspect, but because I want to be able to play the same game for YEARS with the game receiving constant updates and additions... something you never get from a single-player game. In the past, an assumption by MMO devs was that single-player gamers were all game hoppers who only wanted to play a game for 30 hours and move on... but the reality is quite the opposite. Many casual and solo players want to play the same game for years, especially if there are constant changes and updates, while also offering the option of socializing if they want to. What always irritated me about FFXIV in the past was the forced grouping for the MSQ dungeons/trials... while the rest of it (questing) was all solo... and I returned solely because they've made great changes to help players like me continue the MSQ without being forced to group. I never had a problem in the group content that I did previously, but, it was also annoying having to sit forever in a queue sometimes just wanting to continue the MSQ, but the current population at the time I was playing low. That's the huge problem with many MMOs that force group content, you cannot always 'play when you want' because you have to be on when the population allows you to group. Right now over in DCUO, the population is so low people spend hours upon hours in queue for older content... something that FFXIV is proactively addressing by making MSQ content soloable.

Perhaps YoshiP is testing the waters for difficulty by stating that the next MSQ trial will be harder, even in normal. We'll see how many players fail and complain, internally they will be able to see how many deaths occur, how many times it takes to pass, and how many players abruptly unsub and leave due to being unable to progress. If they end up nerfing the trial in the future, then you'll have your answer about how well players enjoy harder difficulty. Personally, I prefer easy just because I play for the STORY, not for 'difficulty' or 'challenge'.

[Supersnow845]

Let me say that OP made it sound like all players want to play EX or Savage, but I believe the reality is, the majority of casual players DO NOT. FFXIV has grown in leaps and bounds, not because of difficulty, but because of it's increasing soloability of the MSQ. MMO no longer means "group" and hasn't for years, but some players cling to that outdated definition... currently MMO simply means a massive number of players playing the same game online at the same time. This is why most MMOs are switching to make the game more solo friendly and easier for casual players- because those are the majority of players. I know I play MMOs not for the 'group' aspect, but because I want to be able to play the same game for YEARS with the game receiving constant updates and additions... something you never get from a single-player game. In the past, an assumption by MMO devs was that single-player gamers were all game hoppers who only wanted to play a game for 30 hours and move on... but the reality is quite the opposite. Many casual and solo players want to play the same game for years, especially if there are constant changes and updates, while also offering the option of socializing if they want to. What always irritated me about FFXIV in the past was the forced grouping for the MSQ dungeons/trials... while the rest of it (questing) was all solo... and I returned solely because they've made great changes to help players like me continue the MSQ without being forced to group. I never had a problem in the group content that I did previously, but, it was also annoying having to sit forever in a queue sometimes just wanting to continue the MSQ, but the current population at the time I was playing low. That's the huge problem with many MMOs that force group content, you cannot always 'play when you want' because you have to be on when the population allows you to group. Right now over in DCUO, the population is so low people spend hours upon hours in queue for older content... something that FFXIV is proactively addressing by making MSQ content soloable.

Perhaps YoshiP is testing the waters for difficulty by stating that the next MSQ trial will be harder, even in normal. We'll see how many players fail and complain, internally they will be able to see how many deaths occur, how many times it takes to pass, and how many players abruptly unsub and leave due to being unable to progress. If they end up nerfing the trial in the future, then you'll have your answer about how well players enjoy harder difficulty. Personally, I prefer easy just because I play for the STORY, not for 'difficulty' or 'challenge'.

Yoshi also said that RPR was so hard they were considering changing it because it was approaching being too hard for normal people
And what we got was literally the easiest melee class we have ever gotten

I truly don’t know if he buys his own hype or there has actually been some sort of disconnect but as much as you can like or dislike the high end playerbase they are all in agreement that yoshi’s statements about increasing difficulty never amount to anything

[VelKallor]

Packet..it isnt the jumping, its the bloody camera angle. i swear half the time on that tower, thats what i was doing, trying to get the cameras focus so the above area / steps wasnt occluding what I was aiming at

[VelKallor]

You wont believe this...but you have JUST paraphrased what Ghostcrawler said back in Cataclysm , more or less word for word. He actually said that they put in harder content thinking that people would like it and they DIDNT...well that again is why Blizzard is in the damned gurgler right now, they misread their audience so bloody often I swear to God they have their heads up their...yeah i wont finish that sentence.

Back in Cata they had two dungeons, Zul Aman and Zul Gurub..and ( Im not making this up ) it got to the point where people LITERALLY ( and I saw this with my own eyes ), queue for a random heroic, get one of those two, and IMMEDIATELY zone out again...we even saw them say it "NO...just NO" and vanish. They preferred to eat a 30 min lockout rather than run that instance.

They HATED it...there was a boss called Jindo, his nickname was jindo the pug breaker. A name he earned over and over again.

Heres the funny part

When Legion came along it was HEAVY in story content and lore , people loved it, the content was tuned to be a lot easier and as an overall experience it was wonderful..they mixed in hard and easy and it worked...but the focus was on the STORY content and it was a fantastic experience.

Whats needed is the mid core experience and maybe thats were these new Criterions will help. We will see.

[Kazhar]

I truly don’t know if he buys his own hype or there has actually been some sort of disconnect but as much as you can like or dislike the high end playerbase they are all in agreement that yoshi’s statements about increasing difficulty never amount to anything

Yoshi-P saying that Endsinger was savage level and him introducing the Endwalker dungeons as challenging was certainly an... unique opinion, but I wouldn't say that his statements never amount to anything.

Nobody believed him when he said that Delubrum Savage would be significantly harder than Baldesion, and he was indeed spot on that time.

[Reinha]

I will say this, SE seems to really care for those of us who struggle occasionally. The new event which involves navigating a jumping puzzle, is almost impossible for me to do but SE included a bypass for players like me so that we can get the glams.

My problem with some MSQ dungeons is that they are easier than the bypass you easily cleared... All I'm asking is to actually have a fail condition so 4 man dungeons can't be cleared by just 2 people. Something to heal perhaps? Something that requires 4 people to be present and not dead or afk.