MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Omedon]

I'd argue the exact opposite. The MSQ would only require you to have maybe 2 healing spells

Oh there is absolutely a button bloat problem for healers, you won't get an argument from me there. There are so many niche buttons per healer job that none of those powers can really justify their existence, because of how niche they are. You can't have a "wrong healer" for 4-person content, after all. The answer isn't more damage buttons though. I don't know what the answer is, but I know that healers are kind of in the position here that both tanks and healers are in other games. They gate the queues, they are in demand to make the game work, thus it must be approachable and, by extension, easy. Ideally they heal more than they do damage, but that's never going to be the case in solo content. Again, I don't know what the answer is, but it's not complicating their secondary role as a damage dealer, because that creates big problems when they group up with other players again.

Now, if the MSQ becomes 100% non-interdependent, you do reach a point where everything beyond, everything with other players can be flagged as "at your own risk," and there are ways to facilitate that... but that is a point on the side of making the MSQ inevitably easy, which, well... healers: check!

[vetch]

I know that healers are kind of in the position here that both tanks and healers are in other games. They gate the queues, they are in demand to make the game work, thus it must be approachable and, by extension, easy.

A low barrier to entry but without any depth doesn't create a healthy population of active and dedicated healers, it creates churn as new healers realize there's nowhere to grow and no satisfaction thereof to be had.

[Omedon]

A low barrier to entry but without any depth doesn't create a healthy population of active and dedicated healers, it creates churn as new healers realize there's nowhere to grow and no satisfaction thereof to be had.

Ah, but you assume that everyone that takes up healing wants a challenge. I can say as a leader of MMORPG communities that this is not my experience. As a "career tank," I literally want the healers to have a free ride, and see it as my job to make it so, in thanks for them taking up the job that people rarely want to actually do, dating back to RPGs' tabletop roots.

[Supersnow845]

Ah, but you assume that everyone that takes up healing wants a challenge. I can say as a leader of MMORPG communities that this is not my experience. As a "career tank," I literally want the healers to have a free ride, and see it as my job to make it so, in thanks for them taking up the job that people rarely want to actually do, dating back to RPGs' tabletop roots.

Have you ever considered that people don’t want to heal as much because games far too often treat healers as fodder so the DPS can have more fun

My job right now is basically designed to help the DPS have more fun, if I didn’t hate myself as much as I do I wouldn’t be playing SCH I’d be playing a job square actually designs around being fun

[Omedon]

Have you ever considered that people don’t want to heal as much because games far too often treat healers as fodder so the DPS can have more fun

My job right now is basically designed to help the DPS have more fun, if I didn’t hate myself as much as I do I wouldn’t be playing SCH I’d be playing a job square actually designs around being fun

I see no untruths here. Like, I get it. Literally all jobs that aren't DPS are there, in a large part (but not completely) to move the queue for the DPS majority. Tanking/Healing jobs can't be "hard" because they have external difficulties at the community level ("Pull faster"/"Heal me while I pull faster"). It's the reality we live in by logging into a trinity MMORPG. WoW hasn't escaped it (and when they try it's a mess. See: discipline priests), FFXIV can't escape it. By default, folks DPS. It's low responsibility, high fun. And FFXIV can lean into this because, well... another job is just a button away. Someone will find fun in healing, and a low barrier to entry will assure that more people discover that fun that's there. Making it "more engaging" makes it less approachable, and, well, we're back at the square one of that being bad for business.

[ForteNightshade]

I see no untruths here. Like, I get it. Literally all jobs that aren't tanks and healers are there, in a large part (but not completely) to move the queue for the DPS majority. Tanking/Healing jobs can't be "hard" because they have external difficulties at the community level ("Pull faster"/"Heal me while I pull faster"). It's the reality we live in by logging into a trinity MMORPG. WoW hasn't escaped it (and when they try it's a mess. See: discipline priests), FFXIV can't escape it. By default, folks DPS. It's low responsibility, high fun. And FFXIV can lean into this because, well... another job is just a button away. Someone will find fun in healing, and a low barrier to entry will assure that more people discover that fun that's there. Making it "more engaging" makes it less approachable, and, well, we're back at the square one of that being bad for business.

Correction: FFXIV chooses not to escape it.

You can make the healing role more engaging without increasing its difficulty. Hence why most healer mains nowadays are asking for a more robust DPS kit comparable to tanks. These buttons will largely go ignored by the pure healers who panic at the slightest bit of damage taken but will improve the overall gameplay for everyone else. Alas, the dev team has refused to entertain the idea out of fear players will make it mandatory. In other words, they're choosing to make healers boring as sin for anyone below average to accommodate a portion of the playerbase who watches Netflix on the side. The irony is their dumbing down of healers hasn't accomplishment their set objective: increasing the overall healer population. Healers and tanks alike have been in constant demand, especially healers despite them being made easier and easier. It stands to reason the boring gameplay has pushed out as many—debatably more—than has brought in.

As for your prior remark about tackling higher-end content if you want a challenge per Yoshida's statement. Said higher-end content; all the way up to Ultimate, changes nothing about healer gameplay. You will still press one button well over 100 times; more than every other ability in your arsenal combined. On a purely anecdotal level, I've been learning how to SGE in Savage and cleared P1-3S while only pressing five GCD heals between all three fights. All of them were in P3S. The requirements are simply far too low at all levels of difficulty. Put bluntly, you aren't a healer in FFXIV. You're a gimped DPS who occasionally heals.

[Omedon]

the dev team has refused to entertain the idea out of fear players will make it mandatory.

Translation: They know how MMOs end up working out.

[IDontPetLalas]

Ah, but you assume that everyone that takes up healing wants a challenge. I can say as a leader of MMORPG communities that this is not my experience. As a "career tank," I literally want the healers to have a free ride, and see it as my job to make it so, in thanks for them taking up the job that people rarely want to actually do, dating back to RPGs' tabletop roots.

However, that's not at all interesting for the healers. As a healer I do not want a "free ride", that comes off as extremely condescending in tone.

That hasn't been my experience in any game in which I've played a healer, nor would I want it to be my experience in this one- by the way in all of those other game healers had many options , such as through skill tress- to both heal and do damage. This game has been far more simplified in that aspect than it used to be,

[Jojoya]

That hasn't been my experience in any game in which I've played a healer, nor would I want it to be my experience in this one- by the way in all of those other game healers had many options , such as through skill tress- to both heal and do damage. This game has been far more simplified in that aspect than it used to be,

It's helpful if you give detailed examples of how healer classes and encounters were designed in those other games so others can understand where you're coming from. People find it too easy to say "other games aren't like this" but then can't express an actual difference between the two.

If SE is going to improve on healer design, what game should they be looking at for an example?

Evidently not considering the healer population hasn't budged in years despite their constant dumbing down. The dev team is not infallible here. After all, this is the same team which openly admitted they didn't balance Bard and Machinist around the piercing debuff yet were baffled why both were incredibly overpowered.

Regardless, even if we do take that at face value. You're essentially justifying them having a boring gameplay for 1/3 of the playerbase because a portion want to watch Netflix. That's a terrible philosophy.

Healer numbers rarely budge in any MMO because most players are more interested in seeing huge damage numbers splashed across the screen over having to watch health bars and debuffs/buffs on party members. No matter what's been tried, it's hard to get players to try out the role that's perceived as having more responsibility. Tanks also have frequently suffered from this, though to a lesser degree.

Perhaps the real solution is to give DPS additional responsibility beyond watch the boss and move out of mechanics as they DPS. Tanks have the added responsibility of handling their mitigation as they DPS. Healer have the additional responsible of keeping party HP at accepting levels and then DPSing if they have the free GCD (or oGCD if available). What additional responsibility has been given to DPS?

[Deveryn]

It's helpful if you give detailed examples of how healer classes and encounters were designed in those other games so others can understand where you're coming from. People find it too easy to say "other games aren't like this" but then can't express an actual difference between the two.

If SE is going to improve on healer design, what game should they be looking at for an example?

Everquest 2 actually has a lot of different nukes for healers, but they really get into elemental resistances and potencies. That doesn't exist here, so it would all be redundant.