MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Cilia]

Genuinely difficult content (Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate) is there for players who want it. The MSQ should not be designed to kill you; this game's focus is on it's story, whether or not you like a given line, and all content is set to "Easy Mode" by default. Besides which, you don't have a full toolbox below the level cap - and because of that ever growing toolbox, even simple 6.X bosses can be more complex than high difficulty 2.X ones.

Difficult story bosses can be incredibly rewarding (hello pre-nerf Shinryu!) but it's not the wisest course for drawing in and retaining non-hardcore players, and as an MMO there needs to be as wide an audience as possible.

[Absurdity]

The MSQ should not be designed to kill you; this game's focus is on it's story, whether or not you like a given line, and all content is set to "Easy Mode" by default.

Why shouldn't it? Every other mainline Final Fantasy game was designed to kill you. It constantly presented you with challenges to overcome if you wanted to experience more of the story.


I remember regularly getting my ass handed to me when I first played FFX until I sat down and properly learned to use it's systems like the Sphere Grid, different elements and status effects.

[Cilia]

Why shouldn't it? Every other mainline Final Fantasy game was designed to kill you. It constantly presented you with challenges to overcome if you wanted to experience more of the story.


I remember regularly getting my ass handed to me when I first played FFX until I sat down and properly learned to use it's systems like the Sphere Grid, different elements and status effects.

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story. An MMO is different from single player games, in the sense that MMOs require other people to also be good at the game. If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content. You have to depend on other people, rather than your own skill (or luck, or patience grinding).

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

[Tehmon]

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story. An MMO is different from single player games, in the sense that MMOs require other people to also be good at the game. If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content. You have to depend on other people, rather than your own skill (or luck, or patience grinding).

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

Some people argue that if the game increases in challenge (for the MSQ content that is), it will increase the skill of players and motivate them to do and play better, thus also promoting an increased challenge in future content as well. I have no idea how convincing of an argument that is, or how logical and true it is.

I do think there are just some dungeon bosses that miss the mark completely. Aitascope wall-to-wall pulls are more challenging and deadly than any of the dungeon bosses, sans maybe having a full team of newbies against Amon who don't know to hide behind Shiva's ice. And the second boss from Vanaspati is an absolutely joke and a half, as is the first boss from Ktisis. Tower of Babil is not even worth mentioning (outside of Anima's '' follow the target '' attack that always seems to kill a healer).

But then I think there are some great boss designs each expansions as well, EW included. Tower of Zot is quite excellent, and the last boss is lovely and engaging. Granted they don't hit like a truck so you are given the opportunity to fail while dodging their AoE spam, but still, it's fun and feels rewarding when you don't get hit at all. Ra'La on the other hand has pretty easy to dodge mechanics, but if you get even one vuln stack, you are almost as good as dead because Ra'La hits like a truck with everything, especially the team wide, so there is little room for error. The entire Dead Ends is just well executed imo.

So to me there are hits and misses, and there is varying amounts of difficulty, and where that difficulty stems from (hard-hitting attacks, new unclear mechanics or AoE spam).

[Kamatsu]

Some people argue that if the game increases in challenge (for the MSQ content that is), it will increase the skill of players and motivate them to do and play better, thus also promoting an increased challenge in future content as well. I have no idea how convincing of an argument that is, or how logical and true it is.

It's not true, as has been shown in the past in other games which have tried this. Other games have ramped up the difficulty, with that mindset that by doing so it'll motivate players to get better.... and all they ended up doing was chasing players away.

Classic recent example was Guild Wars to and the lead up to, and the launch of it's 1st expansion. It's Living World (MSQ) content leading up to the expansion got harder as it was introduced, and there were increasing complaints from players over this. However these complaints were drowned out by the small, but extreme vocal, minority of players who were urging ANet to go harder. Then the expansion hit... and it ramped up the difficulty even more than before.

The result? ANet suffered their greatest ever, or since, 6-month loss in revenue as the majority of their player base abandoned the game... the players did NOT get motivated to get better, to better use skills, etc and overcome the increased challenges. The players hit the brick wall of increased difficulty and left the game. It was so bad that for the 1st time there were threads on both the official forums and GW2 reddit asking where players were... ppl were trying to do content in the either the expansion or the base game and seeing nobody around. ANet had to do a hard 180&, nerf the hell out of the expansion... to stop the players leaving, and their whole studio being shut down by NCSoft (as NCSoft is known to do if/when studio's stop being profitable enough).

Fact is most of the players who would be effected negatively by making the MSQ harder won't 'try harder' or 'play better'... they will take their limited time and money elsewhere. Most of these ppl just want to log in, relax and do the story after a day/week at work... they don't want to be stressed out with a game, challenged or have to watch youtube video guides on how to beat a MSQ dungeon/trial... and if they can't just mash their way through a fight and thus get stuck, they will leave and go play somethign else that doesn't force them to struggle.

[Packetdancer]

It's not true, as has been shown in the past in other games which have tried this. Other games have ramped up the difficulty, with that mindset that by doing so it'll motivate players to get better.... and all they ended up doing was chasing players away.

Or my own beloved and much-missed WildStar.

The early levels were fairly accessible. However, WildStar did not have a smooth difficulty curve; in fact, somewhere around... I wanna say level 40? ...it turned into more of a difficulty cliff. More than a few people I knew slammed into that cliff at high speed; a few decided to climb it, but others bounced off, looked at the cliff, and went "Nope" and vanished back to other games.

I mean, don't get me wrong... I loved WildStar, but I'm under no illusions that the difficulty curve was the only mistake the game made. But it was definitely a mistake, and one that I definitely don't think helped player retention. Since I personally knew like... 8 people who hit that level range and noped out, saying they played games to relax and didn't find that sudden cliff relaxing. Or enjoyable.

[VelKallor]

I mean, don't get me wrong... I loved WildStar, but I'm under no illusions that the difficulty curve was the only mistake the game made. But it was definitely a mistake, and one that I definitely don't think helped player retention. Since I personally knew like... 8 people who hit that level range and noped out, saying they played games to relax and didn't find that sudden cliff relaxing. Or enjoyable.

When 0.05% of your playerbase sees raid content, thats a red flag something is seriously wrong.

[Reinha]

Most of these ppl just want to log in, relax and do the story after a day/week at work... they don't want to be stressed out with a game, challenged or have to watch youtube video guides on how to beat a MSQ dungeon/trial... and if they can't just mash their way through a fight and thus get stuck, they will leave and go play something else that doesn't force them to struggle.

I don't think anyone is asking for the kind of difficulty that players have to watch guides for. Solo duties can kill you and make you struggle but you just try again. Many dungeons are much easier, to the point of being too easy especially as jobs get more powerful at high levels. It's just weird to go from a level 50 solo duty full of AoE dodging and a soft enrage to dungeons where half the party isn't even needed, nothing can kill you and mechanics either don't exist or can be ignored. The game expects us to be able to clear solo duties without dying so why should dungeons be so forgiving that half the party can be afk or dead and still pass?

[Myrany]

I don't think anyone is asking for the kind of difficulty that players have to watch guides for. Solo duties can kill you and make you struggle but you just try again. Many dungeons are much easier, to the point of being too easy especially as jobs get more powerful at high levels. It's just weird to go from a level 50 solo duty full of AoE dodging and a soft enrage to dungeons where half the party isn't even needed, nothing can kill you and mechanics either don't exist or can be ignored. The game expects us to be able to clear solo duties without dying so why should dungeons be so forgiving that half the party can be afk or dead and still pass?

I am glad you brought this up. I just did the new Ritalin fight through the lahabrea fight today for this first time since they redid it all. I was quite taken by surprise by how much dodging and mechanics were in those 2 fights. I got through them first shot but it was quite a change and actually was considerably harder than the old fights where both Ritalin and Lahabrea used to fall over in a light breeze.

I am not sure I would go so far as to say the early HW stuff is a easy as you say but it certainly feels easier than it was 3 years ago when I first did it. Not sure how much of that is power creep or just that I am a better player than I was back then. I think what makes the early parts of expansions a bit tough for new players is that in the 50-54ish range skills change enough to alter a rotation you have been doing for a very long time. I know for me I find myself looking up a guide and spending some time rearranging bars and practicing until I can hit the keys without looking. That is me though. I have been playing MMOs for nearly 20 years. I have a basic process developed over years to go from. Someone new to this sort of game doesn't have that.

[ForteNightshade]

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story. An MMO is different from single player games, in the sense that MMOs require other people to also be good at the game. If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content. You have to depend on other people, rather than your own skill (or luck, or patience grinding).

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

Operative words here is "too difficult". We've reached a point where content is so easy entire roles can be rendered irrelevant and dodging mechanics is more a formality than a requirement. I shouldn't be able to stand in AoE markers and shrug off the damage as though it never happened yet in a good chunk of the MSQ dungeons, I can do precisely that. At the higher levels, healers aren't necessary whatsoever. Whether it be a Warrior, Gunbreaker or even a Dark Knight, all the tanks are capable of surviving pulls by themselves. Only Dark Knight will die to bosses due to it lacking any self-sustain. We have a new dungeon coming out in 6.2 and it'll be a complete faceroll on release. Bosses like Ozma, Diabolos or even pre-nerfed Cid were never supremely hard. They could simply kill people who weren't paying attention. Nowadays, Cid is so pathetic two whole alliances can fail both the stack mechanic and dropping the bleed puddles without wiping the raid. You literally have to actively try to fail otherwise it's downright impossible.

There's a balance between being too difficult for people who only care about story and being so comically easy a toddler could complete most of it.