MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Packetdancer]

The Mist Dragon in The Burn uses the starburst telegraph. You get one first then 2 later on.

Ah! Thank you; I suspected I might be forgetting one.

(It's been a long day. I've had a lot of meetings. Please kill me.)

As for elemental damage, that's been used enough and the story certainly talks enough about how the elements oppose each other. When you face Shinryu, you have puddles that give you +fire resist and -lightning.

While I agree, I will point out that Shinryu is a duty that also has a (not terribly deserved) reputation for being difficult, and where I've seen people just flail around and die during that specific part before. So I'm not entirely convinced it's a duty that is conducive to really learning that for the average player, much less remembering it later in the heat of the moment when they're in an unfamiliar duty.

The bridge between MSQ content and extreme / savage is in doing the regular content and playing through everything more than once and properly learning what does what. To make this all easier, they're going back and making sure all markers are consistent. In the meantime, the information is out there for all the fights.

While -- again -- I agree almost entirely with this, I will say that I think where the step-up from normal content to higher-end is difficult for some is that almost nothing in normal content requires you to pay close attention to the environment, as opposed to just watching telegraphs/symbols. And that's the part I don't think is entirely well-covered by existing content -- or rather, where it is covered by content with an intermediate difficulty, it's in content that ends up being rather niche and having something of a shelf-life. (Bozjan critical engagements et al.)

[Packetdancer]

I can tell from your ignorant tirade that you don't have the first clue about what Parkinson's is like. My condition is centered in the brain. Getting emotional in any way and that includes becoming excited, triggers a response that causes my entire body but more specifically my limbs and hands, to start shaking uncontrollably. It can also be triggered by physical exertion, even small amounts, such as carrying a full cup of water. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more on topics before you post opinions on them.

To be fair, in ForteNightshade's defense, if there was mention of Parkinson's earlier in the thread on some previous page, I know I overlooked it; I honestly didn't realize the "shaking like a leaf" in your post was a reference specifically to Parkinson's as opposed to a dramatic way of saying that the Titania trial was impossibly imposing to tackle. And I say this as someone who is very familiar with Parkinson's.

(My dad has it -- progressed far enough that it's begun to affect his memory and concentration, and there are significant restrictions on the situations in which he's allowed to drive an automobile -- and I am at high risk for it later in life; I have a lot of motive to make sure I'm well-educated on it, both to be a supportive daughter and to be prepared in case it's something I eventually need to deal with personally as well.)

So I'm definitely sympathetic to how hard that can make things, and the challenges it can present. And you are absolutely in no way obligated to share that sort of thing with people; your health (and any challenges stemming from such) are entirely your own business, and you owe folks on some random internet forum no explanations, nor is it your responsibility to educate folks.

But that said... lacking those explanations, I think it's also slightly unrealistic to expect folks to draw the conclusion that the phrase "shaking like a leaf" in a post specifically references a neurological condition like Parkinson's, as opposed to just being a dramatic way of describing being upset by the duty.

After all, folks on this forum, myself included, are sometimes prone to waxing eloquent -- or at least, utilizing highly melodramatic turns of phrase -- when writing posts here.

[Eraden]

To be fair, in ForteNightshade's defense, if there was mention of Parkinson's earlier in the thread on some previous page, I know I overlooked it; I honestly didn't realize the "shaking like a leaf" in your post was a reference specifically to Parkinson's as opposed to a dramatic way of saying that the Titania trial was impossibly imposing to tackle. And I say this as someone who is very familiar with Parkinson's.

(My dad has it -- progressed far enough that it's begun to affect his memory and concentration, and there are significant restrictions on the situations in which he's allowed to drive an automobile -- and I am at high risk for it later in life; I have a lot of motive to make sure I'm well-educated on it, both to be a supportive daughter and to be prepared in case it's something I eventually need to deal with personally as well.)

So I'm definitely sympathetic to how hard that can make things, and the challenges it can present. And you are absolutely in no way obligated to share that sort of thing with people; your health (and any challenges stemming from such) are entirely your own business, and you owe folks on some random internet forum no explanations, nor is it your responsibility to educate folks.

But that said... lacking those explanations, I think it's also slightly unrealistic to expect folks to draw the conclusion that the phrase "shaking like a leaf" in a post specifically references a neurological condition like Parkinson's, as opposed to just being a dramatic way of describing being upset by the duty.

After all, folks on this forum, myself included, are sometimes prone to waxing eloquent -- or at least, utilizing highly melodramatic turns of phrase -- when writing posts here.

I sympathize with your situation. I truly do. I would not wish this condition on anyone else. That being said, I had repeatedly indicated in this thread that I have a disability and had even indicated at the start of this thread that it was specifically Parkinson's. It is up to those who respond to my posts to do proper due diligence before responding.

[Packetdancer]

I sympathize with your situation. I truly do. I would not wish this condition on anyone else. That being said, I had repeatedly indicated in this thread that I have a disability and had even indicated at the start of this thread that it was specifically Parkinson's. It is up to those who respond to my posts to do proper due diligence before responding.

Fair enough! I know when a thread has had a lot of churn and gone on for several pages -- especially if it's been several days since you last caught up on the thread, or you come to the thread late and end up on a later page more quickly -- it can be easy enough to overlook things. (Witness that I apparently did while skimming the thread to catch up!)

But if you'd already shared that earlier in the thread -- if you'd provided that context, and had every reason to think the reader thus has the necessary context to interpret the post -- then yeah, that does sort of put the onus of reading the situation correctly on the reader.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. While I agree the Titania trial is not actually possessed of any really remotely difficult mechanics, I don't think it introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at someone prior. At least, if the person in question has only really done MSQ content.

I'll grant you the Starburst mechanic is, technically, new if you've exclusively stuck to MSQ content. Which I'm fairly certain the person I quoted has not. Either way, it's "new" in that sense.

The rest I'd have to disagree on simply due to them existing in some similar variation or just being entirely non-threatening. Perhaps I'm being a bit too unfair to assume that the logical conclusion to a fire debuff would be to stand in water. Even should you fail or, as you mentioned, be nervous over Titania's undeserved reputation, it ultimately doesn't matter as she's still entirely forgiving.

Frankly, I dislike how much content nowadays tries to avoid wiping the party as much as humanly possible. It harkens back to my prior argument that far too much of the content in this game is a participation reward.

I can tell from your ignorant tirade that you don't have the first clue about what Parkinson's is like. My condition is centered in the brain. Getting emotional in any way and that includes becoming excited, triggers a response that causes my entire body but more specifically my limbs and hands, to start shaking uncontrollably. Some days are worse than others. I try to get these duties done on my better days. My condition can also be triggered by physical exertion, even small amounts, such as carrying a full cup of water. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more on topics before you post opinions on them. I am going give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this idiotic post of yours to plain ignorance as opposed to outright malice.

Because you never mentioned it in our exchange. Why would I? In fact, it isn't until page three of a now sixteen page thread you bring up having Parkinson's. Meanwhile, I joined this discussion only on page eight and specifically quoted your own nonsensical tirade spewing off about elitism and your exaggeration that, and I quote, "only the OP and fewer and fewer people can participate." Which neither what the OP nor anyone else in this thread has remotely suggested. The OP even highlighted specific fights which are already being cleared by casual players. Some of them simply aren't faceroll level difficulty. Looking back through the whole thread now, you even have someone who their own disability asking you not to lump them in with your generalization yet you proceed to fight with them tooth and nail.

Perhaps instead of being hostile, exaggerative and downright rude to everyone who disagrees with you, people may be more inclined to be sympathetic.

Nonetheless, while having a disability is unfortunate, a game cannot cater towards it otherwise the vast majority of players who aren't disabled are left with simplistic and undertuned content. What they can do, and to Sqaure Enix's credit have, is offer accessibilities options. In this particular instance, the expansion of Trusts. What you're doing is demanding the game work for you and screaming at anyone and everyone who feels differently because their own experiences isn't as enjoyable. Once again, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be radically altered into this extremely difficult gauntlet on the "elitists" could overcome. They're asking for content where say, in an Expert Dungeons, healers are actually relevant. Right now, they literally don't have a purpose. All four tanks can and have full wall pulled everything because the outgoing damage is laughable and their kits are incredible. Older content is power crept so hard nowadays it's a shell of itself.

There's a middle ground between so easy you could fall asleep and still clear and being reasonable challenging while still easy.

[Iscah]

Titania might not seem like a big deal now, but the battle was a huge stumbling block when the content was new. Wipes all round and parties would get stuck half-full as people dropped out, refusing to continue.

Also, while the starburst was technically "not new" it acted differently to the Mist Dragon's attack, and in any case that is another battle that can still go very messily.

[Eraden]

Because you never mentioned it in our exchange. Why would I? In fact, it isn't until page three of a now sixteen page thread you bring up having Parkinson's. Meanwhile, I joined this discussion only on page eight and specifically quoted your own nonsensical tirade spewing off about elitism and your exaggeration that, and I quote, "only the OP and fewer and fewer people can participate." Which neither what the OP nor anyone else in this thread has remotely suggested. The OP even highlighted specific fights which are already being cleared by casual players. Some of them simply aren't faceroll level difficulty. Looking back through the whole thread now, you even have someone who their own disability asking you not to lump them in with your generalization yet you proceed to fight with them tooth and nail.

Nonetheless, while having a disability is unfortunate, a game cannot cater towards it otherwise the vast majority of players who aren't disabled are left with simplistic and undertuned content. What they can do, and to Sqaure Enix's credit have, is offer accessibilities options. In this particular instance, the expansion of Trusts. What you're doing is demanding the game work for you and screaming at anyone and everyone who feels differently because their own experiences isn't as enjoyable. Once again, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be radically altered into this extremely difficult gauntlet on the "elitists" could overcome. They're asking for content where say, in an Expert Dungeons, healers are actually relevant. Right now, they literally don't have a purpose. All four tanks can and have full wall pulled everything because the outgoing damage is laughable and their kits are incredible.

First, it is your responsibility, as well as that of all other people who respond to posts, to have done their due diligence and actually have read the other posts in the thread in order to understand the context of the posts. Not doing so is simply pure laziness. Second, it is a fact that if the combat portions of the MSQs (this is what the OP was asking for) are made more difficult, it will begin to exclude players like me who already struggle from time to time. Third, the other poster in this thread who has a disability had repeatedly ignored my clarifications that I was not referring to all disabled people and certainly not that poster who's abilities were sufficient enough to complete even the most difficult of content this game has to offer. Fortunately, that poster finally acknowledged my other posts and we had a cordial end to our discussion. Fourth, I am demanding nothing of this game. It is YOU and others like you who are asking the core game to be changed. I haven't asked once for any of the harder content to be made more accessible to me. YOU are asking for the core part of the game to be made more difficult. YOU are the one being selfish here.

[ForteNightshade]

We have quite a bit to break down here.

First, it is your responsibility, as well as that of all other people who respond to posts, to have done their due diligence and actually have read the other posts in the thread in order to understand the context of the posts.

This is hogwash. You're expecting people to read through what is now sixteen pages for context instead of simply mentioning it when relevant to the argument you're having with specific individuals. That isn't how forums work. Not to mention, my initial response had nothing to do with disabilities but rather your comical exaggeration into extremism; initially describing the whole thing as elitism then claiming it "cause significant reductions in the player base" which is little more than a massive assumption. Especially when the OP lists content casual players have already been clearing for years. It may impact you but not a significant portion of the playerbase as you like to insinuate.

Furthermore, the OP is asking for the content to not be entirely faceroll not to be some Savage level insurmountable wall. Once again, I specifically cited an example, which you conveniently ignored. So I'll spell it out. Healers in current level dungeon content are irrelevant. They're literally nothing more than gimped DPS because tanks have so much self sustain and mitigation at their disposal, they can and have soloed the bosses. Warrior is notorious for being able to solo everything single dungeon boss in Endwalker and even P1N. Granted, Paladin and Gunbreaker can as well, just with more work involved. Making healers actually be required to, you know, heal isn't going to make the dungeons the latest Ultimate. Making old content like Shinryu remain relevant instead of being power crept into oblivion also isn't going progression some impossible task. If it did, casual players wouldn't have gotten through base Stormblood.

Fortunately, that poster finally acknowledged my other posts and we had a cordial end to our discussion.

This a blatant lie. You argued with them for four pages before she politely bowed out after getting tired of arguing with your constant strawmanning. Their last post was,

I've said what I've wanted to say and gave my opinions on OP's topic, have a nice night.

You certainly have an interesting definition of cordial.

Fourth, I am demanding nothing of this game. It is YOU and others like you who are asking the core game to be changed. I haven't asked once for any of the harder content to be made more accessible to me. YOU are asking for the core part of the game to be made more difficult. YOU are the one being selfish here.

You literally said in this very response that making the game any harder will exclude you. Thus, you're demanding it stay exactly the way it is because it benefits you. Now if that was simply you expressing an opinion there wouldn't be an argument. Instead, you came into this thread guns blazing, immediately jumped to extremes and went off on everyone who dared to express their opinion that content is far too easy leading to the aforementioned healer example. We're both allowed to have opinions here, regardless of whether or not you like it. But yes, go on insisting other people are selfish.

At this point, I'll take Mosha's cue and bow out of this brick wall myself.

[Eraden]

This latest post of yours is yet again another example of why it is important to educate yourself by reading the other posts in the thread before responding with some inane drivel. It's not hogwash. It's due diligence which you obviously appear to forgo in favor of being lazy. If you had actually bothered to read the whole thread you would have learned that the conversation between me and the other poster with a disability, had continued and at one point we had both conceded some points and ended the discussion cordially. You are either being incredibly lazy with your responses or you are deliberately trying to be malicious. I never said anything about the OP wanting to make the MSQs equivalent to Savage level content. I said that making the MSQs harder will begin to exclude players like myself that are already struggling from time to time. The game in it's current form is ALREADY in a state where I can still play the core portion of it. YOU are the one, along with others, who are calling for the game to be changed. YOU are still the one being selfish here. It is incredibly perverse to suggest that because I enjoy the game as it currently ALREADY is, that somehow I am making a demand of it. I have no need to make a demand of it because it is already accessible to me. I DO have a beef with those of you who want to change the game such that it might not be playable by me anymore.

[Reinha]

I recently did almost the whole last boss encounter in the level 87 dungeon with me as PLD and a melee. The other 2 members died. It should not be possible to clear a boss without a healer. If requiring healers (and other jobs) to cast spells in MSQ duties would exclude that small number of disabled people with such severe conditions that they cannot cast spells on demand, that's ok in my view. There are plenty of movies and TV series that aren't designed to be interactive.