MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Eraden]

This is a ridiculous exaggeration.

While I disagree with aspect of the OP's post, your comparison to Savage is jumping to the opposite extreme. We could see an uptick in the MSQ content difficulty, or casual content in general, without it being anywhere close to Savage. Right now, the MSQ and most dungeon content is borderline fail-proof. There's a decently large middle ground between so comically easy it takes effort to fail and Savage. Whether you agree with the OP or not, their stance is moving closer to that middle ground where dungeons can actually hurt you compared to now where a single pulling tank is quite literally useless. None of that is elitism either because the OP gives examples of content casual players have already cleared en masse. The only players "excluded" would be those who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear.

There is a considerable amount of content that bridges the gap between the MSQs and Savage tier content. There is no need to force the MSQs to be harder if you are looking for any other sort of challenge. It already exists. MSQs, more specifically the trials, are NOT easy for me to do. Titania was quite difficult for me to get done. Does that mean that in your eyes I should be excluded because I don't want to put in any effort? Well newsflash: by the time I got finished doing Titania I was shaking like a leaf. I was trying my damnedest to do everything right and barely got it done. I have a few friends who also have difficulty getting the trials done. But in your eyes we are people "who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear". I am going to chalk this up to you being grossly ignorant of what people like myself go through when playing this game, rather than you trying to outright libel me. I am hoping that you are not that malicious. The simple fact is there will be people who will be excluded from this game if the MSQs are made harder and not all of those people are lazy like you seem to suggest.

[ForteNightshade]

There is a considerable amount of content that bridges the gap between the MSQs and Savage tier content. There is no need to force the MSQs to be harder if you are looking for any other sort of challenge. It already exists. MSQs, more specifically the trials, are NOT easy for me to do. Titania was quite difficult for me to get done. Does that mean that in your eyes I should be excluded because I don't want to put in any effort? Well newsflash: by the time I got finished doing Titania I was shaking like a leaf. I was trying my damnedest to do everything right and barely got it done. I have a few friends who also have difficulty getting the trials done. But in your eyes we are people "who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear". I am going to chalk this up to you being grossly ignorant of what people like myself go through when playing this game, rather than you trying to outright libel me. I am hoping that you are not that malicious. The simple fact is there will be people who will be excluded from this game if the MSQs are made harder and not all of those people are lazy like you seem to suggest.

To be entirely blunt, if you're "shaking like a leaf" over Titania, then you simply haven't practiced whatsoever prior to reaching her. She introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at you already in spades. The fact you're painting her as some monumental challenge screams you either don't know mechanic well enough or don't play your job well. Now either is entirely fine... provided you're willing to practice and get better. Considering a lot of players aren't, well, my statement stands. When I see Black Mages who don't press Fire 1 in their rotation, I'm going to say they aren't putting in much effort to learn considering that's the base rotation from ARR levels.

Nevertheless, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be some insurmountable wall. A good chunk of people would like things like dungeons to be more than simply wall pull a bunch of wet noodles and sleep to victory. When dungeons don't even need a healer it speaks volumes to how grossly undertuned they are.

As for this "considerable amount of content between MSQ and Savage." Where? A good chunk of that content has continuously been watered down because god forbid there's content people can't do. Sephirot Unreal will be coming out in three weeks time and he will completely obliterate every EX trial that existed over the last three years that isn't named Warrior of Light. The difference from his era and now is staggering. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were so woefully undertuned, they were cleared, on release, without a healer. Endsinger is a 12 minute fight an average PF group will kill in 9. She has a single "gotcha" mechanic that will one-shot. Otherwise, she does practically nothing. One person slaps on the Danger Dorito and leads everyone to victory. Even Savage isn't immune to this as P1S is the easiest first entry fight we've had since Alte Roite, who was notoriously meme'd on when he was killed in a single pull.

[Packetdancer]

To be entirely blunt, if you're "shaking like a leaf" over Titania, then you simply haven't practiced whatsoever prior to reaching her. She introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at you already in spades. The fact you're painting her as some monumental challenge screams you either don't know mechanic well enough or don't play your job well. Now either is entirely fine... provided you're willing to practice and get better.

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. While I agree the Titania trial is not actually possessed of any really remotely difficult mechanics, I don't think it introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at someone prior. At least, if the person in question has only really done MSQ content.

Because while none of those mechanics are new, I think some of them are ones that hadn't been used in normal content prior to Titania... or if they had been used, they weren't used often.

For instance, the 'starburst' telegraph that shows where her thorns will go; I can't offhand think of anywhere prior to Titania that those get used in normal content. (I may be forgetting one, though, I grant.) Similarly, things like sealing the puddles and then stacking in one of those puddles for the fire punch... while it's not unheard-of for normal content to have follow-on mechanics like that, I would say it is uncommon.

Add to that the fact that Titania has some sort of weird -- and entirely unwarranted -- reputation for being Super Difficult, and I've seen folks enter that trial nervous to start with. And being nervous about "oh god I'm going to mess up" is probably not the best mindset to make tackling potentially somewhat-unfamiliar mechanics feel like a simple task.

When I see Black Mages who don't press Fire 1 in their rotation, I'm going to say they aren't putting in much effort to learn considering that's the base rotation from ARR levels.

...to be honest, I don't use Fire I in my black mage rotation.

It's like... Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV (if I've got the time/speed to pull that fourth one off before Astral Fire drops off), Despair, Manafont, Fire IV, Despair, Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder III, and cycle back to the start with Fire III. Obviously with some Xenoglossy, Sharpcast, Triplecast, and Swiftcast mixed in there as appropriate. (As black mage is my last DPS to get to 90, I don't yet have Paradox to work into that anywhere.)

That said, I also don't play black mage much -- or play it in any particularly high-end content, because it's 100% my least favorite job in the game -- so I grant I might be doing it wrong. (In fact, I am probably doing it wrong.) But that just feels to me like it should be the most effective rotation, and there's no place in there I see for Fire I.

[Deveryn]

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. While I agree the Titania trial is not actually possessed of any really remotely difficult mechanics, I don't think it introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at someone prior. At least, if the person in question has only really done MSQ content.

Because while none of those mechanics are new, I think some of them are ones that hadn't been used in normal content prior to Titania... or if they had been used, they weren't used often.

For instance, the 'starburst' telegraph that shows where her thorns will go; I can't offhand think of anywhere prior to Titania that those get used in normal content. (I may be forgetting one, though, I grant.) Similarly, things like sealing the puddles and then stacking in one of those puddles for the fire punch... while it's not unheard-of for normal content to have follow-on mechanics like that, I would say it is uncommon.

The Mist Dragon in The Burn uses the starburst telegraph. You get one first then 2 later on.

As for elemental damage, that's been used enough and the story certainly talks enough about how the elements oppose each other. When you face Shinryu, you have puddles that give you +fire resist and -lightning.

The bridge between MSQ content and extreme / savage is in doing the regular content and playing through everything more than once and properly learning what does what. To make this all easier, they're going back and making sure all markers are consistent. In the meantime, the information is out there for all the fights.

[Packetdancer]

The Mist Dragon in The Burn uses the starburst telegraph. You get one first then 2 later on.

Ah! Thank you; I suspected I might be forgetting one.

(It's been a long day. I've had a lot of meetings. Please kill me.)

As for elemental damage, that's been used enough and the story certainly talks enough about how the elements oppose each other. When you face Shinryu, you have puddles that give you +fire resist and -lightning.

While I agree, I will point out that Shinryu is a duty that also has a (not terribly deserved) reputation for being difficult, and where I've seen people just flail around and die during that specific part before. So I'm not entirely convinced it's a duty that is conducive to really learning that for the average player, much less remembering it later in the heat of the moment when they're in an unfamiliar duty.

The bridge between MSQ content and extreme / savage is in doing the regular content and playing through everything more than once and properly learning what does what. To make this all easier, they're going back and making sure all markers are consistent. In the meantime, the information is out there for all the fights.

While -- again -- I agree almost entirely with this, I will say that I think where the step-up from normal content to higher-end is difficult for some is that almost nothing in normal content requires you to pay close attention to the environment, as opposed to just watching telegraphs/symbols. And that's the part I don't think is entirely well-covered by existing content -- or rather, where it is covered by content with an intermediate difficulty, it's in content that ends up being rather niche and having something of a shelf-life. (Bozjan critical engagements et al.)

[redheadturk]

For instance, the 'starburst' telegraph that shows where her thorns will go; I can't offhand think of anywhere prior to Titania that those get used in normal content. (I may be forgetting one, though, I grant.) Similarly, things like sealing the puddles and then stacking in one of those puddles for the fire punch... while it's not unheard-of for normal content to have follow-on mechanics like that, I would say it is uncommon.

The Burn is the only other place I have ever seen that mechanic, and I hated it in that too.

[Eraden]

To be entirely blunt, if you're "shaking like a leaf" over Titania, then you simply haven't practiced whatsoever prior to reaching her. She introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at you already in spades. The fact you're painting her as some monumental challenge screams you either don't know mechanic well enough or don't play your job well. Now either is entirely fine... provided you're willing to practice and get better. Considering a lot of players aren't, well, my statement stands. When I see Black Mages who don't press Fire 1 in their rotation, I'm going to say they aren't putting in much effort to learn considering that's the base rotation from ARR levels.

Nevertheless, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be some insurmountable wall. A good chunk of people would like things like dungeons to be more than simply wall pull a bunch of wet noodles and sleep to victory. When dungeons don't even need a healer it speaks volumes to how grossly undertuned they are.

As for this "considerable amount of content between MSQ and Savage." Where? A good chunk of that content has continuously been watered down because god forbid there's content people can't do. Sephirot Unreal will be coming out in three weeks time and he was completely obliterate every EX trial that existed over the last three years that isn't named Warrior of Light. The difference from his era and now is staggering. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were so woefully undertuned, they were cleared, on release, without a healer. Endsinger is a 12 minute fight an average PF group will kill in 9. She has a single "gotcha" mechanic that will one-shot. Otherwise, she does practically nothing. One person slaps on the Danger Dorito and leads everyone to victory. Even Savage isn't immune to this as P1S is the easiest first entry fight we've had since Alte Roite, who was notoriously meme'd on when he was killed in a single pull.

I can tell from your ignorant tirade that you don't have the first clue about what Parkinson's is like. My condition is centered in the brain. Getting emotional in any way and that includes becoming excited, triggers a response that causes my entire body but more specifically my limbs and hands, to start shaking uncontrollably. Some days are worse than others. I try to get these duties done on my better days. My condition can also be triggered by physical exertion, even small amounts, such as carrying a full cup of water. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more on topics before you post opinions on them. I am going give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this idiotic post of yours to plain ignorance as opposed to outright malice.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. While I agree the Titania trial is not actually possessed of any really remotely difficult mechanics, I don't think it introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at someone prior. At least, if the person in question has only really done MSQ content.

I'll grant you the Starburst mechanic is, technically, new if you've exclusively stuck to MSQ content. Which I'm fairly certain the person I quoted has not. Either way, it's "new" in that sense.

The rest I'd have to disagree on simply due to them existing in some similar variation or just being entirely non-threatening. Perhaps I'm being a bit too unfair to assume that the logical conclusion to a fire debuff would be to stand in water. Even should you fail or, as you mentioned, be nervous over Titania's undeserved reputation, it ultimately doesn't matter as she's still entirely forgiving.

Frankly, I dislike how much content nowadays tries to avoid wiping the party as much as humanly possible. It harkens back to my prior argument that far too much of the content in this game is a participation reward.

I can tell from your ignorant tirade that you don't have the first clue about what Parkinson's is like. My condition is centered in the brain. Getting emotional in any way and that includes becoming excited, triggers a response that causes my entire body but more specifically my limbs and hands, to start shaking uncontrollably. Some days are worse than others. I try to get these duties done on my better days. My condition can also be triggered by physical exertion, even small amounts, such as carrying a full cup of water. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more on topics before you post opinions on them. I am going give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this idiotic post of yours to plain ignorance as opposed to outright malice.

Because you never mentioned it in our exchange. Why would I? In fact, it isn't until page three of a now sixteen page thread you bring up having Parkinson's. Meanwhile, I joined this discussion only on page eight and specifically quoted your own nonsensical tirade spewing off about elitism and your exaggeration that, and I quote, "only the OP and fewer and fewer people can participate." Which neither what the OP nor anyone else in this thread has remotely suggested. The OP even highlighted specific fights which are already being cleared by casual players. Some of them simply aren't faceroll level difficulty. Looking back through the whole thread now, you even have someone who their own disability asking you not to lump them in with your generalization yet you proceed to fight with them tooth and nail.

Perhaps instead of being hostile, exaggerative and downright rude to everyone who disagrees with you, people may be more inclined to be sympathetic.

Nonetheless, while having a disability is unfortunate, a game cannot cater towards it otherwise the vast majority of players who aren't disabled are left with simplistic and undertuned content. What they can do, and to Sqaure Enix's credit have, is offer accessibilities options. In this particular instance, the expansion of Trusts. What you're doing is demanding the game work for you and screaming at anyone and everyone who feels differently because their own experiences isn't as enjoyable. Once again, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be radically altered into this extremely difficult gauntlet on the "elitists" could overcome. They're asking for content where say, in an Expert Dungeons, healers are actually relevant. Right now, they literally don't have a purpose. All four tanks can and have full wall pulled everything because the outgoing damage is laughable and their kits are incredible. Older content is power crept so hard nowadays it's a shell of itself.

There's a middle ground between so easy you could fall asleep and still clear and being reasonable challenging while still easy.

[Eraden]

Because you never mentioned it in our exchange. Why would I? In fact, it isn't until page three of a now sixteen page thread you bring up having Parkinson's. Meanwhile, I joined this discussion only on page eight and specifically quoted your own nonsensical tirade spewing off about elitism and your exaggeration that, and I quote, "only the OP and fewer and fewer people can participate." Which neither what the OP nor anyone else in this thread has remotely suggested. The OP even highlighted specific fights which are already being cleared by casual players. Some of them simply aren't faceroll level difficulty. Looking back through the whole thread now, you even have someone who their own disability asking you not to lump them in with your generalization yet you proceed to fight with them tooth and nail.

Nonetheless, while having a disability is unfortunate, a game cannot cater towards it otherwise the vast majority of players who aren't disabled are left with simplistic and undertuned content. What they can do, and to Sqaure Enix's credit have, is offer accessibilities options. In this particular instance, the expansion of Trusts. What you're doing is demanding the game work for you and screaming at anyone and everyone who feels differently because their own experiences isn't as enjoyable. Once again, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be radically altered into this extremely difficult gauntlet on the "elitists" could overcome. They're asking for content where say, in an Expert Dungeons, healers are actually relevant. Right now, they literally don't have a purpose. All four tanks can and have full wall pulled everything because the outgoing damage is laughable and their kits are incredible.

First, it is your responsibility, as well as that of all other people who respond to posts, to have done their due diligence and actually have read the other posts in the thread in order to understand the context of the posts. Not doing so is simply pure laziness. Second, it is a fact that if the combat portions of the MSQs (this is what the OP was asking for) are made more difficult, it will begin to exclude players like me who already struggle from time to time. Third, the other poster in this thread who has a disability had repeatedly ignored my clarifications that I was not referring to all disabled people and certainly not that poster who's abilities were sufficient enough to complete even the most difficult of content this game has to offer. Fortunately, that poster finally acknowledged my other posts and we had a cordial end to our discussion. Fourth, I am demanding nothing of this game. It is YOU and others like you who are asking the core game to be changed. I haven't asked once for any of the harder content to be made more accessible to me. YOU are asking for the core part of the game to be made more difficult. YOU are the one being selfish here.

[ForteNightshade]

We have quite a bit to break down here.

First, it is your responsibility, as well as that of all other people who respond to posts, to have done their due diligence and actually have read the other posts in the thread in order to understand the context of the posts.

This is hogwash. You're expecting people to read through what is now sixteen pages for context instead of simply mentioning it when relevant to the argument you're having with specific individuals. That isn't how forums work. Not to mention, my initial response had nothing to do with disabilities but rather your comical exaggeration into extremism; initially describing the whole thing as elitism then claiming it "cause significant reductions in the player base" which is little more than a massive assumption. Especially when the OP lists content casual players have already been clearing for years. It may impact you but not a significant portion of the playerbase as you like to insinuate.

Furthermore, the OP is asking for the content to not be entirely faceroll not to be some Savage level insurmountable wall. Once again, I specifically cited an example, which you conveniently ignored. So I'll spell it out. Healers in current level dungeon content are irrelevant. They're literally nothing more than gimped DPS because tanks have so much self sustain and mitigation at their disposal, they can and have soloed the bosses. Warrior is notorious for being able to solo everything single dungeon boss in Endwalker and even P1N. Granted, Paladin and Gunbreaker can as well, just with more work involved. Making healers actually be required to, you know, heal isn't going to make the dungeons the latest Ultimate. Making old content like Shinryu remain relevant instead of being power crept into oblivion also isn't going progression some impossible task. If it did, casual players wouldn't have gotten through base Stormblood.

Fortunately, that poster finally acknowledged my other posts and we had a cordial end to our discussion.

This a blatant lie. You argued with them for four pages before she politely bowed out after getting tired of arguing with your constant strawmanning. Their last post was,

I've said what I've wanted to say and gave my opinions on OP's topic, have a nice night.

You certainly have an interesting definition of cordial.

Fourth, I am demanding nothing of this game. It is YOU and others like you who are asking the core game to be changed. I haven't asked once for any of the harder content to be made more accessible to me. YOU are asking for the core part of the game to be made more difficult. YOU are the one being selfish here.

You literally said in this very response that making the game any harder will exclude you. Thus, you're demanding it stay exactly the way it is because it benefits you. Now if that was simply you expressing an opinion there wouldn't be an argument. Instead, you came into this thread guns blazing, immediately jumped to extremes and went off on everyone who dared to express their opinion that content is far too easy leading to the aforementioned healer example. We're both allowed to have opinions here, regardless of whether or not you like it. But yes, go on insisting other people are selfish.

At this point, I'll take Mosha's cue and bow out of this brick wall myself.