MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Eraden]

^this. I am 52, legally blind, and have severe coordination issues. I raid savage, but it takes me a while to learn the fights in such a way that I can react to the mechanics a few milliseconds before they go out. I have to react before they go out or I will get hit by them. Making MSQ content too much more difficult would frustrate me to the point that I would not want to keep trying.

The biggest problem I have with people calling for the MSQs to be made more difficult is that most of these people are not even asking for OPTIONAL harder modes. They want it to be made harder for EVERYONE. One has to wonder why these people feel the need to make things more difficult for everyone. For the few who have come to this thread to put in a word for OPTIONAL harder modes, I can get behind this. It gives those who want more of a challenge an opportunity to have such a challenge while at the same time, allows those of us who might be struggling from time to time with current content to be able to keep playing.

[Packetdancer]

The biggest problem I have with people calling for the MSQs to be made more difficult is that most of these people are not even asking for OPTIONAL harder modes. They want it to be made harder for EVERYONE. One has to wonder why these people feel the need to make things more difficult for everyone. For the few who have come to this thread to put in a word for OPTIONAL harder modes, I can get behind this. It gives those who want more of a challenge an opportunity to have such a challenge while at the same time, allows those of us who might be struggling from time to time with current content to be able to keep playing.

My own stance on this notwithstanding—though I think my post above this one makes it pretty clear where I fall in this debate—I will note I think part of the reason people argue for the MSQ difficulty being raised just flat-out, rather than optional harder content, is the idea that it would provide more encouragement—and more opportunity—for people to hone their skills on the way to endgame. Because, everything else aside, people aren't wrong that the MSQ's current difficulty level does not actually require people learn how their job works to any real degree. Freestyle SAM, Ice Mage BLM... playing like that won't actually prevent anyone from getting through the MSQ.

But if people then want to try higher-end content, there's not a lot of ground between "as long as you push some buttons you'll probably be okay" and "welcome to Extreme Trials!" The closest thing we have to an intermediate difficulty between the two is stuff like critical engagements in Bozja, and even that was enough of a step up from MSQ difficulty to give some folks a hard time. Not because they couldn't do it, but because the MSQ did not prepare them to do so. And we've seen a lot of people on these forums get frustrated because they feel like there's this giant gap to jump to get from the forgiving nature of the MSQ to even something as approachable as extreme trials.

No, I don't think the MSQ difficulty should be ramped up. Even if I would really love more content in this game that has some bite to it. (Fingers crossed for the Criterion dungeons?)

But I will admit I can also see why people would argue from the standpoint that it should be.

[Midareyukki]

Yes yes, the mythical blind quadriplegic 150-year-old Maasai grandmother with a 5kbps internet connection for whom all MSQ content must be designed around.

I've never met a disabled person who plays this. Only people with "small" issues. But I can tell you I have colourblindness, and am unable to associate nouns to directions due to a type of motor-based dyslexia under any form of pressure (left\right, larboard\starboard, port\star, izquierda\derecha, rechts\links, 左\右). I'm not elderly, I just struggle with these things, to the point where I'm downright terrified of trying to get a driver's license. Because I know that the moment the instructor says "turn left", I'm going to either freeze or go the completely wrong way.

I know someone with actual dyscalculia. Her brain just refuses to work when maths of any kind is involved, including counting or recognizing numbers.

So when you give me an arena that's completely purple (E9S) or orange (P3S), I will struggle. And this game's colourblind shaders rarely ever help. In fact, the shader supposedly meant for me actually makes it worse. I can't tell shades apart either, so often I run to Marker C fully believing it to be Marker D until I take a closer look at the really, really ugly font the dev team chose.
Give me something with nouns as directions for incoming attacks (O11S), I will struggle. And no, changing the terms won't matter, because my brain just refuses to acknowledge directions have names.
Hell, simply giving me something that's direction-based or messes with spatial awareness and I WILL struggle (Zodiark EX, E10S's shadows).

But I managed to find ways around it. For colourblindness, either I do the fight and wing it if I can't anchor myself to any "tell". Or I rely on patterns if there are any.
I pre-emptively spend minutes on end memorizing directions beforehand so I don't screw up when the mechanic happens. O11 is exhausting because I feel like I need to memorize four directions and not just two, because the boss turns around and it flips... but I do it.
I also had to memorize and do a lot of mental gymnastics just to figure out the rotation part of Zodiark. And my static had to use clock positions to help me resolve the shadows in E10S.

The girl I mentioned? She can't handle numbers, but she does recognize shapes, so I made this for her. It's not glamorous, but you know what? It worked, and she cleared TEA with it. It actually helped her with Limit Cut.

The point is... yeah, people with disabilities, or just issues in general, exist. And it's not often that the game is helpful. Some fights are easier if you find a trick around them, others aren't. Even on easier content like MSQ instances, people may feel disoriented until they learn their personal trick. From the outside it looks no different than learning the fight, but from the inside, it feels like it's one extra step people have to take over everyone else to do what everyone else says is normal.

I'm not asking for content to be designed around me and me alone, but it does get in the way a lot when content specifically happens to hit that one part that I can't handle without some form of a crutch.

And the people who ask for there to be a bit more awareness would definitely appreciate it, and likely aren't the sort of players to be lazy and not try to clear content. They work harder, even on "easier" content because stuff messes with them, be it perception, logic, awareness... More so than it would a normal person. I've seen people who actually are lazy and refuse to adjust and waste 7 peoples' time. I had such a person on an old static, and let me tell you, it did not last long. No one was happy. And knowing that I worked hard to deal with this and make sure the fights could go as smoothly as they could, even if I needed to be told where to go by someone else, to then see someone not even bothering really stung. It's not an experience I take lightly anymore.

[redheadturk]

snip

Oh God, nothing worse than the more common form of colorblindness where if it's two shades of the same color you can't tell them apart. [P3 is utter hell for me because of the arena design, and Peacekeeper isn't much better because translucent burgundy markers on a gray floor. >>] So yeah, I get ya.

[VelKallor]

The point is... yeah, people with disabilities, or just issues in general, exist.

Ablegamers.

One of their people, and Ive seen footage, is a kid using a controller who had NO HANDS AT ALL.

[Midareyukki]

Ablegamers.

One of their people, and Ive seen footage, is a kid using a controller who had NO HANDS AT ALL.

Sweet jesus on a corn cob, I said disabilities or issues in general, not Taskmaster All-Stars ._.

[Mosha]

I think what people are practically saying when they say they want MSQ content to be harder is not that we want light rampart or limit cut in MSQ, but just everything should hurt a bit more and healing to be more demanding.

[Kaliesto]

I wouldn't say OP is entirely wrong, I've been preaching how everything in the MSQ Quest including every single monster (with exceptions) in Zones and Dungeons were extremely pathetic in difficulty from ARR to EW. I'm getting tired of it, and I'm starting to think there is SE Executive Meddling going on that only cares about the numbers, and shafting everyone else that is not part of the equation because we're the minority that cares about a balanced challenge..for idk.

FUN? Can't have fun when its mindlessly easy.

Really don't understand how let down I was when the final EW boss was pathetic too, but instead you have to do the Extreme Trial for that.

I thought final bosses were suppose to be tough, but hell who cares I guess.

Did FFXI ruin the Dev's cereal so hard that they had to reduce everything down? Because this feels like a extreme backlash now.


I hope this new 6.2 is really going to change things around, and if not well lets just say I'm not going to be very happy.

[Seera1024]

Eraden, your post could easily be interpreted the way Mosha read it. Maybe next time when someone misinterprets what you said instead of assuming malice/bad logic on their part, rephrase what you said.

In the case of this post:

"I didn't mean to come off as talking for all disabled players. I apologize. I meant that some disabled players may not be able to complete the MSQ if difficulty is increased."


As for the OP, given the intent of the MSQ is for people to have an easy time getting through it, it's a fine line between making things interesting for those players who prefer savage tier difficulty and keeping things easy enough to keep a vast majority of the player base from having issues progressing. I wouldn't mind things getting a little more difficult, but I don't know if we're at the point where any more difficult would cross the line or not.

[Eraden]

Eraden, your post could easily be interpreted the way Mosha read it. Maybe next time when someone misinterprets what you said instead of assuming malice/bad logic on their part, rephrase what you said.

In the case of this post:

"I didn't mean to come off as talking for all disabled players. I apologize. I meant that some disabled players may not be able to complete the MSQ if difficulty is increased."


As for the OP, given the intent of the MSQ is for people to have an easy time getting through it, it's a fine line between making things interesting for those players who prefer savage tier difficulty and keeping things easy enough to keep a vast majority of the player base from having issues progressing. I wouldn't mind things getting a little more difficult, but I don't know if we're at the point where any more difficult would cross the line or not.

If that is the case then yes, I could have worded the original post better. I did however in subsequent posts made it clear that I was not speaking for all elderly and disabled persons and yet those two particular posters kept doubling down on their initial assumptions. I can only assume at that point that malice was involved. It was especially troubling when one of them decided that maybe I should not be playing these games. I thought games like this were meant to be inclusive.