On Azem's role in the story

[Denishia]

I agree that WoL as Azem-shard was not necessary but an easy story beat to use. I'm another person who only loved Azem crystal's ally-summoning power as the in-universe party finder lore justification. I also at no point EVER found Emet likeable -or Amaurot society remotely appealing; I'd only play a character in that society if I was explicitly burning it to the ground. So that first point about the player possibly disagreeing with what Azem's choice would be during the Final Days if the writers don't do the smart thing of leaving it open-ended ... by stating that one of the WoL's past lives was best friends with the last character in the game that I want my WoL to be around there's a massive disconnect between Azem and the WoL that any additional info would only strengthen. I don't have an 'Azem' headcanon because the interest in acknowledging that part of my character is nil. Interest in other Shard WoLs like Ardbert who have the same Azem piece? Yes! But I fundamentally no different than interest in characters like Ysayle, Krile, Arenvald, Tenzin, and others who also possessed the Echo and/or Blessing of Light.

But it's that Chosen One Protagonist Centered Power Fantasy- and in regards to Emet and the WoL tied to the Azem he knew (game not leaving it open-ended enough for my tastes but thankfully just enough to allow the WoL to reject that emotional past Azem baggage) it can enter into the variant of that Chosen One Power Fantasy involving villains that I find particularly distasteful - where the villain dehumanizes everyone but makes a single exception in their treatment of others for the protagonist not because of the protagonist's values but because said protag will be that one special exception to affirm the villain's standards, thereby quasi-legitimizing the villain's treatment of others even if the protag is nominally defeating them. This is Zenos and his combat obsession with the WoL. And Emet's 'I don't think of you as living beings' except the WoL has an inherited shard of my old friend I think that will somehow overpower all their new life experiences and growth (disproved by ShB plot plus Gaia, and how Fandaniel is decidedly more Amon than Hermes). One is physical, the other emotional. It isn't something that can be readily divorced from a Chosen Hero narrative, though that's why the Power of Friendship, most exemplified in the MSQ by the Scions and the very nature of this being an MMO where combat (and some non-combat, like ocean fishing) content is not exclusively solo play, works to counteract that 'I'm the only special deserving character'.

I'm still annoyed that the WoL can use Azem's Crystal by descension from Azem instead of a more meaningful 'the WoL's choices to explore and help out everyone that they meet resonates with the spirit inside the Crystal who actively chooses to help based on the WoL's choices.' More agency, or at least illusion of. But then Venat gives something close.

[Cleretic]

I'm sorry, but there's no real way to replace the line, "It's right here. A bit thin in the aether, but there's no mistaking it -- the color of its soul is almost identical to Azem's."

"Look, right there. That little sliver of aether--it's clearly alive, but in this state it's not going to do much. Why don't we give it a hand?"

That wasn't hard. Again, it's hard to tell if Hythlodaeus would treat a rando like that because we've only ever met him while we're solo... but because we've only met him solo, then it would've been no issue at all to write Hythlodaeus as someone who'd do that regardless.

A: What Venat’s successor to the seat of Azem was doing during the Final Days is a secret, one that may or may not be revealed in the future. However, we do have some idea of what they were up to. Whatever you imagine you would’ve done if you were Azem is probably the closest we can get to the truth. (laughs)

This was done during the live letter that laid out the vision for the next 10 years of the game. Assuming this means 4-5 more expansions worth of story, this pretty much tells us that what Azem was doing is a major plot point, what they are doing is more important than Hydaelyn/Zodiark, and you'll find out much later when we get that far in the plot.

See, I've always read this instead as a way to write Azem out of the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, without making the fact that they're not involved a plot hook. 'They'd be doing what you'd be doing' (they gave examples, and they were all stuff like 'crafting' or 'building a house', nothing suggesting importance) seems like a pretty easy way to write out the player insert without making their absence too alarming.

I agree that WoL as Azem-shard was not necessary but an easy story beat to use. I'm another person who only loved Azem crystal's ally-summoning power as the in-universe party finder lore justification. I also at no point EVER found Emet likeable -or Amaurot society remotely appealing; I'd only play a character in that society if I was explicitly burning it to the ground. So that first point about the player possibly disagreeing with what Azem's choice would be during the Final Days if the writers don't do the smart thing of leaving it open-ended ... by stating that one of the WoL's past lives was best friends with the last character in the game that I want my WoL to be around there's a massive disconnect between Azem and the WoL that any additional info would only strengthen. I don't have an 'Azem' headcanon because the interest in acknowledging that part of my character is nil. Interest in other Shard WoLs like Ardbert who have the same Azem piece? Yes! But I fundamentally no different than interest in characters like Ysayle, Krile, Arenvald, Tenzin, and others who also possessed the Echo and/or Blessing of Light.

And this brings up another thing that I thought they might've been doing, but rejected because I respect the writers too much to think that it was their angle.

It's possible that Azem was written to ingratiate us towards Emet and/or Amaurot, by declaring that they're our old friend/old home. That's not an invalid idea on its face even if it's one better done with foreshadowing or buildup, but the problem is that part only really comes out in 5.3, a good chunk after both Emet and Amaurot made their entrance (and Emet made his exit-with-prejudice). I think it comes up far too late to actually sway anyone; anybody who was already a fan doesn't need the extra convincing, and anyone who doesn't like it won't be convinced by such a late claim of connections.

Like, personally I can say that if Azem was friends with Emet, then I think Azem had bad taste in friends. 'But they're you' doesn't matter to me, because I also think younger me had some pretty poor taste in friends.

I feel like Azem has not been handled properly, and I take issue with how Endwalker described them as not only being someone else's pupil, but having their teacher be Venat. In my case this makes very little sense with how much older I picture my Azem as.

I do not want to see more agency taken away from what I picture them as, and I feel it would be better if every player retained the freedom to imagine their respective Azem's however they wish. Therefore, I do not want to see any further attempts made at telling more of Azem's past in this game.

But this part is, again, a consequence of the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, albeit a more interesting one than the blanket opt-out. Azem has personal connections with both Emet and Venat, neither of which are depicted as any closer than the other. This both acts as sort of a character reference for both of them ('you liked both of them as Azem so clearly they're both good people'), as well as nullifying any appeal to personal connection; with both sides' main face being a friend, you can't just pick based on which one Azem was closest to.

Again, I think the easier option here would be to just not have Azem exist in that space at all. But if they have to, Azem being friends with both at least at one time, with no clear falling out on either side, is the right thing to do.

[Rulakir]

It's possible that Azem was written to ingratiate us towards Emet and/or Amaurot, by declaring that they're our old friend/old home. That's not an invalid idea on its face even if it's one better done with foreshadowing or buildup, but the problem is that part only really comes out in 5.3, a good chunk after both Emet and Amaurot made their entrance (and Emet made his exit-with-prejudice). I think it comes up far too late to actually sway anyone; anybody who was already a fan doesn't need the extra convincing, and anyone who doesn't like it won't be convinced by such a late claim of connections.

Well, again, this is an EN localization issue. It's clear in other languages that Emet recognizes the WoL's soul at first sight as someone he knew, his dialog at the lift is more personal, Shade!Hyth outright says that Emet has feelings/affection for the person whose soul the WoL has, and the scene before the Hades trial he says (in JP), "Impossible! You... how can you be here? No... it's not... you're not him/her." Like I said, I was also confused we didn't have this context throughout 5.0 only to find out that EN is the only language that was seemingly stripped of it. -_-

Azem has personal connections with both Emet and Venat, neither of which are depicted as any closer than the other.

I think that's being generous. Azem, Emet, and Hyth (the "trio") are routinely depicted as having been tight knit. It's heavily implied that Emet & Hyth are the people upon whom Azem relied with Emet essentially being at Azem's beck and call. Something else unfortunately left out of EN is that Azem's summoning magic operates on having a "heartfelt wish" (which makes Emet & Hyth showing up in UT all the more touching). Hyth has an entire monologue about them. Whether or not you want to consider the NieR crossover canon (despite being written by Ishikawa), the trio frequently 'reveled until dawn'.

Meanwhile, Azem describes Venat as both close and distant. Venat also having to ask Emet and Hyth how Azem is doing would indicate they're not in contact as much as the trio are. Plus, they have a mentor/protege relationship and while those can be close, I personally wouldn't put it within the same realm as the trio.

[Vyrerus]

That wasn't hard.

It's not a matter of how you could write around it. It's a matter of they already wrote too much to needlessly retcon to write around it.

Look at the Tales in the Shadows, "Through His Eyes." From that you learn Hades and Hythlodaeus both have, "Underworld Vision." They can see see souls drifting in the air, and what's more, they can discern between them. They can even tell when they're being subjected to the pull of the Underworld.

This implies that they see souls drifting, intangible, all of the time. What special thing then, to make Hythlodaeus pause and care? Personal Acquaintance with the soul in question.

[Kesey]

See, I've always read this instead as a way to write Azem out of the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, without making the fact that they're not involved a plot hook. 'They'd be doing what you'd be doing' (they gave examples, and they were all stuff like 'crafting' or 'building a house', nothing suggesting importance) seems like a pretty easy way to write out the player insert without making their absence too alarming.

This is funny, because I finished Endwalker and my mind was like they didn't tell us very much about Azem at all. Then I thought why didn't they just do a lucid echo (like lucid dreaming) where the main character became Azem and did the Elpis thing and they would just have the illusion of control until they wake up. Then I wondered what you did above and what was the sticking point to why there is more to this is Azem in my mind, during what is probably the most pivotal point of Ancient history, is blowing off their former mentor/teacher and their two best friends. And given the scope of what everyone else is dealing with you expect think Azem would blow them (their best friends and mentor!) off to planet a garden or fish or decorate a home or collect mounts/minions or gamble at a gold saucer like place?

No something more is at hand here, because Azem's true power is friendship and they wouldn't abandon their friends.

But then the live letter comes along, and for some reason you glossed over the phrases "the seat of Azem was doing during the Final Days is a secret" and "However, we do have some idea of what they were up to" which confirms that something else is definitely going on.

And when he uses the phrase "one that may or may not be revealed in the future," is the tease that it is coming much further on in the story (taken with the fact this was the 10 year vision live letter).

And friend, if you read this line "Whatever you imagine you would’ve done if you were Azem is probably the closest we can get to the truth. (laughs)" as to produce your answer above, remember that laugh was sarcastic. Meaning, in the meantime, tell yourself that Azem was crafting or building a house but in the future it is something and here is the hint to let you know.

[SannaR]

My problem with Azem isn't that they exist as part of the story. It's that they're connected to the PC. The devs are trying to walk on a tight rope. They don't want to give us too much information about Azem so that players can use their own imagination as to how they want to fill in the blanks. While also giving the character enough to make people go ok I can see the connection.

For me either Azem has future sight or is an us that ended up rejoining back to full and traveled back to a further point in time. In a Rhapsodies of Vana'diel type thing. Which I really don't want until we reach the point in the game's lifespan where talk of putting it into a similar mode that XI is in now. As the devs have taken steps to make it to where even sundered each shard might as well be a clone of Azem. Yet if Azem has future sight then why did that part not pass on? Unless that part didn't attach itself to their soul.

I guess I'm one of the few who picked up before 5.3 that the WoL was more than a familiar soul to Emet. Either its due to my using Japanese voices and English text. Since the English voices don't have as an animated look as the other languages. Just look at the animation differences when it comes to Haurchefant. That and Emet is also trying to drop hints the entire time. Always ending up disappointed as he doesn't want to use the Azem stone to force us to remember. I at least went oh crap we must have been something to Emet when Hythlodaeus drops the new old friend bit after having already said Emet and he were friends.

I know many don't like the whole future sight thing in stories but even what little we've gotten in XIV it acts as the same as any other future sight. In that it's very vague. Now from what I've seen there's two kinds. The kind that no matter what you do what was shown ends up happening. Or you can change what is shown. I personally would rather have Azem have future sight then have it be a fully rejoined WoL that had to grandfather paradox ourselves. Especially when it comes to how they reacted to The Final Days. It doesn't look good if we knew what's going on and chose to stay out of it for reasons.

[aveyond-dreams]

I feel like Azem has not been handled properly, and I take issue with how Endwalker described them as not only being someone else's pupil, but having their teacher be Venat. In my case this makes very little sense with how much older I picture my Azem as.

I do not want to see more agency taken away from what I picture them as, and I feel it would be better if every player retained the freedom to imagine their respective Azem's however they wish. Therefore, I do not want to see any further attempts made at telling more of Azem's past in this game.

[KageTokage]

I do find it a little odd how much they seem to have dug into the perspective of Azem being "us" to a point that they're being insanely vague and open-ended about them when they've stressed that having the same soul =/= being the same person, which Ardbert and Fandaniel already demonstrated.

I would've rather had them be a distinct, clearly defined character like the mentioned because I never really cared to insert my own head canons into a character who by the game's reasoning thus far is not us...and I pray it stays that way.

[Alleo]

I do find it a little odd how much they seem to have dug into the perspective of Azem being "us" to a point that they're being insanely vague and open-ended about them when they've stressed that having the same soul =/= being the same person, which Ardbert and Fandaniel already demonstrated.

I would've rather had them be a distinct, clearly defined character like the mentioned because I never really cared to insert my own head canons into a character who by the game's reasoning thus far is not us...and I pray it stays that way.

Yeah them trying to "hide" most of Azem just makes it feel like we should just see them as we want to see them. But they are their own character, they are not us. Heck I would be fine if they even did not look like us at all since Ardbert also does not necessarily look like us either. Yet seemingly Elpis hints that we do look the same.

I really wonder if we learn more about them in the raids or if they will stay in the shadows.

[Gemina]

Hmm, admittedly I can have difficulty following along with the MSQ because it is a tree that grows upward as we climb it. That basically means that since it is staggered, and I don't refresh my memory with NG+ or additional characters, something of great significance can just fly right over my head when experiencing new content. As an example, I didn't realize we were a shard of Azem's sundered soul until they literally spell it out for us. I remember watching Mr. Happy's thoughts on I think was 5.3, and he said something along the lines of, "Well, we already knew that." And I'm over here all, "We do?"

If it offers any kind of fresh perspective from someone with an outward impression of the MSQ, if asked, "What do you think Azem's purpose is?" I would say that Azem represents the 'other' in the 'this, that' equation. Trying to find the face value of Azem's presence in the story will just send you in circles because it doesn't exist. Azem's purpose is much more internal, and roots the WoL to the world unsundered in a much more substantial way than just being one of Etheirys' rando citizens.

The connection between Azem/WoL and Hades is also necessary because it is revealed that they are friends. The purpose of this connection isn't for you, the player and your story; it is for Emet, the character and his story. Without this reveal, emotional scenes involving things like Hades' defeat, the intervention when facing Elidibus, and Kairos' mindwipe immediately become less poignant. I just don't see that happening without Azem's presence.

During the Eden storyline, we learn of the strong connection between Logrif and Mitron, and the latter being relentless in restoring Gaia's memories to full. And since Emet knew that Azem's soul was sundered, and not sacrificed to Zodiark, he likely never gave up. Ever. Until his defeat by none other than Azem. It's full circle.