We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[Jeeqbit]

I don't consider being in the level 87 dungeon to be 'new'.

Your problem. You can be in the 87 dungeon and still be new enough to not know how to tank properly. Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

The guides and videos that exist now are great. They didn't really exist when I started. But they probably still don't make most people great tanks over night.

No. Just no. 'It's story content' is a stupid excuse.

How is it a stupid excuse? Many people login to the game to do the story. Then they logout until the next story patch. Why should they expect you to be rude to them for being a casual player that doesn't remember how to play properly?

Despite you saying the contrary, this is not good design.

I said that it was good enough, not that it was a good design. I said that it was an intentional design and that it was a successful design. Whether it is a good design is up for debate and is going to depend on opinion.

I don't care. I literally could not care less if you think its toxic. You are wrong.

If I'm wrong, then why does it drive people away from WoW and why does SE punish people for it? It's because it's rude and being rude to another human being is unacceptable.

[AwesomeJr44]

Learning to tank well is something that takes people years. If I'm wrong, then why does it drive people away from WoW and why does SE punish people for it? It's because it's rude and being rude to another human being is unacceptable.

Because people want to be coddled and told that they are good enough even if they are not. But telling them that they are good enough is not toxic, especially if you don't go out of your way to call them trash, and you give them tips on how to not be bad. Calling anyone who demands basic competency toxic is why we have level 90 players who only cast ice spells and stand in telegraphed AOEs. It is not rude, you just take it as rude, and probably will take anything I say as rude unless it is "you're amazing, are perfect in every way, and do not need to improve whatsoever", so I do not care if I offend you as it is literally impossible to not offend people unless you pretend that they are are perfect and not being carried. The toxic casuals in this game literally think I want people to play at an ultimate level. I just want people to play at a skill level where they can contribute their fair share. This is literally the most basic take of all time. If you disagree with the idea of everyone giving their fair share, you are probably one of the people looking for carries.

I also find not contributing to be more rude than people who ask others to give their fair share. So if not contributing is rude, why is it not punished? Because SE caters to hyper casuals and does not care about the people who are forced to carry them.

And no, learning to tank at an average level does not take years. Keep in mind that I am not expecting people in Duty Finder to be gamer gods. I just want people to use one mitigation on mob packs, or at least do so when I ask them to. But the problem is, that people do not want to improve, and the system in place encourages bad play. I can literally go into Expert right now and do my basic 1-2-3 and I'm technically 'participating'

There's a limit. Someone else said it but after level 60 you don't get to be ignorant anymore.

Chances are though it's all the people that run roulettes with a full part of their friends that defend this behavior. They're rarely the ones that deal with the consequences.

^ This. You are not a noob past level 60. If you are in Stormblood, you have the experience of ARR and Heavensward. You are not an idiot. If you need more practice, go back to Heavensward dungeons and get the practice. Even if it takes you more time, it is the right thing to do. And I agree with the second point too. The people defending this are literally defending people being lazy and having others do everything for them. Are these people Vauthry's accounts?

[Saraide]

Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

No, it doesnt. Tanking is not that deep. Not in dungeons. Hitting aoes and using mitigation is not something that takes years. The problem in that case is the player just being toxic and arrogant.

[Jeeqbit]

No, it doesnt. Tanking is not that deep. Not in dungeons. Hitting aoes and using mitigation is not something that takes years. The problem in that case is the player just being toxic and arrogant.

Tanking is easy. Being a good tank with good positioning, minimizing movement, not rotating the boss, being able to use aoe mitigation and normal mitigation at the right times, protecting a party member who is about to die, speedrunning efficiently, understanding enmity to grab stray yellows, being confident is another thing entirely.

From my perspective as a tank, I could say that being a DPS is easy because you just press your attacks. Being a good DPS that does good damage, hits positionals, maintains dots and doesn't die to everything is another thing entirely otherwise "seeing damage" and enrages wouldn't be a thing.

Everyone learns at a different pace as well. You can teach the same things to two different people and one of them will take a week and one of them will take months/years. So just because you learn fast doesn't mean that every single sprout does.

You have to remember that many of them play with sub-optimal default settings.

I also find not contributing to be more rude than people who ask others to give their fair share. So if not contributing is rude, why is it not punished? Because SE caters to hyper casuals and does not care about the people who are forced to carry them.

What makes you think they are not trying to contribute? Most of the people who die to every aoe are just new to the content or returning to the game, or they don't know better.

There is nothing wrong with giving them advice, if they are happy to receive it, but it's hard to gain their trust and assess if they want the advice in a dungeon setting. If you have a casual conversation with them after the dungeon and they explain they are returning to the game, you might reach a point in the conversation where giving some friendly advice is the natural response. If you, a complete stranger, just blurt it out mid-pull, it comes across rude.

[Saraide]

Tanking is easy. Being a good tank with good positioning, minimizing movement, not rotating the boss, being able to use aoe mitigation and normal mitigation at the right times, protecting a party member who is about to die, speedrunning efficiently, understanding enmity to grab stray yellows, being confident is another thing entirely.

From my perspective as a tank, I could say that being a DPS is easy because you just press your attacks. Being a good DPS that does good damage, hits positionals, maintains dots and doesn't die to everything is another thing entirely otherwise "seeing damage" and enrages wouldn't be a thing.

Everyone learns at a different pace as well. You can teach the same things to two different people and one of them will take a week and one of them will take months/years. So just because you learn fast doesn't mean that every single sprout does.

You have to remember that many of them play with sub-optimal default settings.

What makes you think they are not trying to contribute? Most of the people who die to every aoe are just new to the content or returning to the game, or they don't know better.

There is nothing wrong with giving them advice, if they are happy to receive it, but it's hard to gain their trust and assess if they want the advice in a dungeon setting. If you have a casual conversation with them after the dungeon and they explain they are returning to the game, you might reach a point in the conversation where giving some friendly advice is the natural response. If you, a complete stranger, just blurt it out mid-pull, it comes across rude.

Why do you always act like we expect everyone to be a god tier player?

[Nizzi]

Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

[gotaname1]

Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

This is so backwards, that I think I have found my new signature.

[LeonKeyh]

Your problem. You can be in the 87 dungeon and still be new enough to not know how to tank properly. Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

In my opinion this is tanking "well":

1. Hit all of the enemies to keep aggro
2. Use mitigation then use another if it runs out and there are still a decent number of enemies left
3. Pull everything you can


That's it. That is "tanking well" for most people (or at least me when I'm healing). Not a perfect rotation, not knowing that using 2 mitigations at the same time is bad because it's multiplicative, not knowing which mitigation is "best" for what situation, not knowing how/when to tank swap, not being able to line up your burst window with other people, not using your invuln to make a pull easier on the healer, not using your group mitigation during a party-wide attack, not understanding how the aggro system works, not understanding other jobs. Just pull everything, do at least 10% of the damage of the highest damage dealer, and press a mitigation, then when that runs out, press another one.

Maybe that's the problem, that people think something else is expected of tanks in dungeon content. Most people don't care if a tank presses the wrong attack, or the "wrong" mitigation, or doubles up on mitigation accidentally. Just pull everything, keep them on you, and make the healer's job easier by using mitigation.

[Delis]

Your problem. You can be in the 87 dungeon and still be new enough to not know how to tank properly. Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

Ahh no. By 87 you should know how to tank well in this game. Tanking in this game is way to simple and easy. In all seriousness it is the easiest role. By level 87 you should know by now how to run into a pack of mobs then run to the next. Stop, set up shop by using a mitigation (Reprisal, arms length and your invuln should be used as well.) Start by using your invuln on the first wall to wall pull. Then go to reprisal or arms length, while spamming your 15 second mit. You should be spamming your AoE rotation as well to make sure you are hitting all mobs. Things are dead, you run to the next pack then the next, stop at wall, set up shop buy using your 30%mit then arms or reprisal, again things should be dead now. Move to boss. Kill boss then move on to the next group of mobs and repeat what you did from the start of the dungeon, minus your invuln because it is most likely not up yet. That is tanking. That is it. Nothing more than that. People need to stop acting like tanking in THIS game is hard. Once you start doing big boy pulls you will learn they are actually way easier than doing single pulls. You can actually run out of mits by doing single pulls if you mistime usage. Cool downs on mitigation skills work out a lot better on wall to wall pulls. Just be sure to let your healers know when you plan on using your invuln. If you are with a white mage, wait till after they used Holy a few times and the mobs are immune to stun.