We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[AwesomeJr44]

I know some consider this a touchy subject so please read the entirety of my post before making a comment. I might have answered your questions or concerns in my post.

Yesterday I ran into a tank in Ktisis, the level 87 dungeon. I was the healer, and I noticed that the tank wasn’t using mitigation abilities on any of the dungeon mobs and was using them on the dungeon bosses. Any tank who has played that role for a while knows that doing this is foolish as the mobs do far more damage than the ‘tankbusters’ (if we can even can them that as they do barely any damage) on the bosses. After I noticed this, I politely asked the tank to use his mitigation on the dungeon mobs as it was very hard to keep him alive with the way he was playing, that I would 100% be able to keep him alive from an unmitigated dungeon boss tankbuster, and I was thus not having any fun because of having to tryhard to keep him alive. The first time I asked I was ignored and the second time I was told that no other healer had ever said anything and that I should shut up because I don’t pay his sub. (Yes he actually said that, it shocked me too that someone actually uses that stupid argument)

If this was a one-time occurrence, I’d accept that this particular tank is just bad at the game and doesn’t care if he is dead weight to anyone else, and that he’d be a single jerk among many tanks that are willing to learn their roles and put in effort. But it is not an isolated incident. I have done thousands of roulettes and the amount of people who have no idea what they are doing in high level dungeons or trials is completely unacceptable. I’m not even talking about specific mechanics to that boss either. Of course a sprout isn’t going to know that you’re supposed to stand still for Pyretic the first time they see it. But there are people in high level dungeons who don’t know the basics of the game. I, nor any other player, should have to tryhard to make up for someone else’s laziness or inability to learn their role and the game in general.

This incident got me thinking. Why are there so many people in high level content that have no idea what they are doing? The answer is that there is no expectation of them in mid-level content. Sprouts reach level 50 and have no expectations set on them. Thus they continue to play poorly and neglect to put effort into learning how the game works. Then they reach level 60 and experience the same treatment. Then they reach level 70 and there is still no standard. Then they reach 87 and now we have players with the game knowledge of a level 30 player in a level 87 dungeon. No one expected anything from them so they never felt the need to grow as a player. They are still metaphorical infants in an activity meant for metaphorical teenagers. No one told them that they were playing poorly and that they needed to learn how to play better when they were in Stormblood dungeons. Now apparently it is the responsibility of a healer in a level 87 dungeon to teach a tank the absolute basics of tanking, assuming that they even listen as they usually aren’t accustomed to feedback that isn’t ‘it’s ok to play poorly’ or ‘you’re doing fine enough’.
This needs to stop. We need to stop telling sprouts in mid-level content that poor play is ‘good enough’ as long as they clear. A sprout who spends the entire trial or dungeon on the ground is not contributing. They are not helping the team. It does not matter if the other three people carry them to a win. They are still dead weight. When I say this, I do not say this to attack sprouts. When they begin playing the game, they obviously won’t have the same game knowledge as a level 90 savage raider like me. But it is not ok that a level 71 player does not know what a stack marker is in Holminster Switch.

Now I know what people are going to say. Thus I will preemptively answer some questions about what I am talking about to clear things up. What I am saying is not as radical or elitist as some might think.
What about sprouts in low level content? I am not talking about people in very low level dungeons. If the sprout in Sastasha doesn’t know what they are doing, that is fair as they are brand new to the game. I am talking about people in Stormblood dungeons or higher. There is no excuse for consistently awful play once you reach that level. You should know the game by then and if you don’t, you are not trying hard enough.

What about people who have one bad run? Is it fair to criticize people for one bad run? Yes. Because if it is one bad run, they will take the criticism and not make the same mistakes again.

What about level skippers? I literally cannot care less if you skip levels. But if you skip to level 80, and then enter Tower of Zot, I will be expecting you to play at the skill level of a level 81 player. This is fair. If you need practice to learn your job or the game, you can go back to lower level dungeons and work your way up. There are also practice dummies everywhere that everyone has access to. You have to tools at your disposal to play well. You only need to choose to use them, and most people just don’t. It is not my responsibility to teach you the basics in a high level dungeon. If we meet in lower level content, I would be happy to teach you anything you want as long as we can do it while in the dungeon. But I am not teaching the basics in Tower of Zot.

Isn’t it unfair to expect people to play at an amazing level? I am not expecting THAT much from people. I know that as a savage raider, I put more time into the game than most and thus I do not expect people to play at my level in general. But at the same time, I do expect you to play at a skill level fitting to the content you’re in. If you’re in Ktisis and do not use mitigation on mobs because you do not have basic game knowledge, that is unacceptable. I want to see basic competence from people in higher level dungeons. By level 70, you need to be able to tell me what a stack marker is. On a related note, I do not care if you want to play the game casually. That is fine. But there is a difference between being a casual who doesn’t do the more difficult content in the game, and being so lazy that you refuse to learn your job and the game in general. I know plenty of casual players who will admit to being casuals and they still perform better than most people I meet in Duty Finder. Even if you are a casual, that is not an excuse for being lazy.

How can you tell me to put effort in when you don’t pay my sub? I see this excuse used unironically and it’s a VERY bad argument. Yes, I don’t pay your sub. But you don’t pay mine. And your laziness is making my experience worse and thus wasting the money I spent on my sub. I do not like this argument, but if you want to bring this argument up, you cannot complain when I rescue you into a mechanic and get you killed. If my sub doesn’t matter and my experience doesn’t matter, you can spend time on the floor and have some of your sub time wasted. But honestly, I’d prefer if we didn’t do that as I think the ‘you don’t pay my sub’ argument is stupid and only used when you know the other person is right, don’t have anything to respond with, and don’t want to admit you were wrong.

Are you endorsing being rude to people? No, I am endorsing an expectation that players put a satisfactory amount of effort into their gameplay. In fact, I find people who don’t to be far more rude than I could ever be by calling them out. When someone is playing poorly, tell them that politely and they might listen. If they don’t, I think it is absolutely fair to tell them that they are being lazy and expecting others to pick up the slack. I think that is fair because that is the truth. “I personally think that you are being rude by pushing your responsibilities onto me and the other people here. Can you please put in a little more effort to take the strain of the rest of us?” This is a polite enough way to say it. If anyone says this is not polite enough, they have thin skin and then there’s no point in trying to talk to them as they’re just going to double down on being a rude lazy piece of dead weight. However, I think that if the in game culture shifted to expect more from mid-level sprouts, people might become more receptive to taking more responsibility.

Why do I have to take more responsibility? It is not fair for you to be putting in 10% of the team’s effort. You should be putting in at least 25% of the team’s effort as you are 25% of the team. If you are not trying your best to put in that much effort, you are lazy. If I am being forced to put in 40% of the team’s effort, that is not fair to me. The most fair way to do it is to have everyone do their part.

[aveyond-dreams]

I am tolerant of new players who are trying to learn their role until about level 50. If after that basic expectations are not being met, more often than not I choose to leave the party rather than be vocal about the issue due to the way in which some players react to advice regarding mechanics such as aoeing 3+ enemies or pulling multiple packs at a time.

If I see someone is at least making an effort, that's ok. But single pulling in current levelling dungeons just isn't the sort of gameplay skill I expect at someone of that level, along with knowing what various markers mean. Using skip potions does not excuse one of this responsibility.

[Deceptus]

I am tolerant of new players who are trying to learn their role until about level 50. If after that basic expectations are not being met, more often than not I choose to leave the party rather than be vocal about the issue due to the way in which some players react to advice regarding mechanics such as aoeing 3+ enemies or pulling multiple packs at a time.

If I see someone is at least making an effort, that's ok. But single pulling in current levelling dungeons just isn't the sort of gameplay skill I expect at someone of that level, along with knowing what various markers mean. Using skip potions does not excuse one of this responsibility.

This is pretty much my take on it. If I'm under lvl 70 and people are at least making an effort and taking constructive criticism I'll have patience for days.

But after lvl 70 the gloves need to come off at some point.

[XiRon]

I am tolerant of new players who are trying to learn their role until about level 50. If after that basic expectations are not being met, more often than not I choose to leave the party rather than be vocal about the issue due to the way in which some players react to advice regarding mechanics such as aoeing 3+ enemies or pulling multiple packs at a time.

If I see someone is at least making an effort, that's ok. But single pulling in current levelling dungeons just isn't the sort of gameplay skill I expect at someone of that level, along with knowing what various markers mean. Using skip potions does not excuse one of this responsibility.

God this just makes me think of all the paper crowns Ive had to heal...who used single target attacks on mobs...and then dps started dying or I got targetted because a MENTOR wasnt using aoe to maintain aggro.

I'm also thinking about all the times ive gotten brayflox or qarn on lv roulette and the tank didnt have a soulgem. Like you have to do job quests to unlock the tank ranged attacks, are they just not keeping up with the red dot on the top of the screen saying saying "hey new quest available since you hit 30!" its a tragedy

[Ardeth]

I don't know to me the point of random players or random skill levels is kinda the expectation in general. Like when I get a good group yippee, but I'm not going to hold it agaisnt them if they aren't the best player ever. Hell I know I'm not.

[AwesomeJr44]

but I'm not going to hold it agaisnt them if they aren't the best player ever.

I don't either, I just want people in level 87 dungeons to play like they are anywhere close to level 87 and not like they are brand new to the game when they clearly aren't if they are in the level 87 dungeon. (and as I said in my OP, they shouldn't be learning the basics there if they story and/or level skipped)

[Ardeth]

I don't either, I just want people in level 87 dungeons to play like they are anywhere close to level 87 and not like they are brand new to the game when they clearly aren't if they are in the level 87 dungeon. (and as I said in my OP, they shouldn't be learning the basics there if they story and/or level skipped)

There's so many variables on what people are capable of and comfortable with I just don't even try to have anymore expectations except that they know how to login. Seriously I used to really let this kind of thing bother me and let me tell you the second I stopped caring my quality of life skyrocketed.

[TaleraRistain]

So I have to ask some questions here. What level of "tryhard" did you have to expend to keep the tank alive? Are you used to just popping a regen or a shield and not having to do anymore than that? How do you usually heal other tanks? That's some important context here because it establishes what your personal opinion of correct play should be. And it helps measure if you have realistic expectations of others or unrealistic expectations of others.

Assuming your server and DC are correct, I'm going to say that my experiences on the same data center are vastly different. I've been on this server and thus this DC for 8 years. I'm a WHM main. I PUG almost exclusively because my FC and my friend group is small and those I spend time with tend to play sporadically. I can count on one hand in all that time the number of times I've run into a tank that was just impossible to keep alive. At least one of those was because they were way undergeared. The vast majority of situations I run into is that most tanks do fine even on big pulls. Those where we're struggling, I don't finger point at them. I explain I'm having some trouble keeping them alive and ask if we can adjust things a little. Usually this makes them realize on their own what they're doing wrong. Sometimes we dial back the pulls and we're fine. I have never when I have communicated in a group had someone use that phrase. I suspect your words were not as polite as you're trying to imply they were.

All we can do is give our own experiences. But (assuming that's your character) I'm on your same DC and I specialize in the role you're referring to, and I just don't have the same experiences. I don't have dungeons that take forever either. And I very rarely feel that I'm having to completely carry everyone else. I may have a time where I use my skills more than others, but I consider that par for the course when the game matches me with people with varying skill and experience levels.

[AwesomeJr44]

So I have to ask some questions here. What level of "tryhard" did you have to expend to keep the tank alive? Are you used to just popping a regen or a shield and not having to do anymore than that? How do you usually heal other tanks? That's some important context here because it establishes what your personal opinion of correct play should be. And it helps measure if you have realistic expectations of others or unrealistic expectations of others.

I had to use every cooldown I had, I had almost no MP by the time we reached the boss, (and I was using Lucid dreaming and everything I could to conserve mana) and I was lucky if I could get a damage spell in. I literally had to spam heal to keep the tank alive because he double pulled with zero mitigation (not even the short cooldowns), and his gear was not great but not horrible either.\

I normally never have trouble healing tanks, even average skilled tanks, but it honestly doesn't matter how much healing I normally give other tanks, I should not have to be a heal bot because my tank is too lazy to use literally ANY mitigation even after I told him how. It's boring and unnecessary when the tank could just do what they are meant to do and use even one of the skills they have. I even told him exactly how to do it as I play all of the tanks and know how to properly mitigate in dungeons with all of them.

After this, if he took my advice to heart, he should have had at least ONE mitigation. I normally do two per mob pull but even one would have been enough. That is the baseline. One mitigation per mob pull. That at least is somewhat helpful. He had zero for the entire dungeon outside of the boss 'tankbusters' that do nothing. I don't see it as unreasonable to expect a tank to press the buttons that they have access to. If the tank doesn't want to mitigate, why don't we just have one healer and three DPS? That would a) kill the dungeon mobs faster and b) be just as hard on the healer as a tank that doesn't mitigate at all.

I can count on one hand in all that time the number of times I've run into a tank that was just impossible to keep alive.

He wasn't impossible to keep him alive. I kept him alive the entire time and he never died. The issue was that I had to put far more effort than is fair to ask for. The tank refused to put in effort and I was forced to pick up the slack and essentially put in two people's worth of effort. That is incredibly unfair to ask of someone to do. I should not be forced to put in effort for two people because my tank refuses to use their skills when they are level 87.

At least one of those was because they were way undergeared.

I've healed tanks with worse gear than this one with far less effort so it was more of a skill issue than his gear.

Those where we're struggling, I don't finger point at them. I explain I'm having some trouble keeping them alive and ask if we can adjust things a little.

That's fine if you want to do it that way but I find it very obnoxious to have to drop hints to the mistakes someone is making. It's convoluted for no reason and only makes things messier in an attempt to spare someone's feelings. All I did was politely give the advice to the tank and didn't call him trash or anything. I just asked if he could use the mitigation on the mobs as it was hard to keep him alive with the way we was doing it. I even promised that if I failed to keep him alive through unmitigated boss tankbusters that he could go back to mitigating them and I wouldn't complain. He ignored me the first time and when I asked again politely, I got told to shut up and that I don't pay his sub.

I suspect your words were not as polite as you're trying to imply they were.

I should have mentioned this in my OP but after we beat Hermes I actually asked both DPS if I was rude when I asked the tank to do proper mitigation, and they both said I was polite, and that the tank overreacted and was the rude one. I would think that if I was the one being rude, they would have told me and probably reported me as they would have the GMs on their side. No offense but I'll be taking their word for it rather than someone who wasn't there. I know it's hard to believe when I can't copy paste the chat logs as this happened yesterday, but I'd ask that you take my word for it, and if not then /shrug.

I specialize in the role you're referring to, and I just don't have the same experiences.

This might be why you have different experiences than me with it. I am not a healer main and thus not a gamer god tier healer. I do not have the skill level to absolutely carry a garbage tier tank with ease. Seeing as you are looking at my character, you can probably see that I am a tank main, not a healer main. As a tank main, when a tank doesn't use mitigation, that sticks out to me like a sore thumb so I notice it more than a healer main would.

However, it doesn't matter if I am a healer main or a tank main, if I was doing that much healing on a tank with proper cooldown usage, I'd be doing so much overhealing that I'd be considered a bad healer and a heal bot. This is a dungeon. I should not have to be using literally every cooldown and then spamming my heal button just to prevent the tank from dying. I should be able to cast a damage spell one time without the tank just dying instantly because I wasn't spamming my healing.

I don't have dungeons that take forever either. And I very rarely feel that I'm having to completely carry everyone else. I may have a time where I use my skills more than others, but I consider that par for the course when the game matches me with people with varying skill and experience levels.

It didn't take forever as I kept the tank alive the entire time. I never said I failed to keep him up, it just wasn't fun whatsoever because I was forced to be a heal bot the entire time. The only time I got to have fun was during the bosses because their damage is so low that I could actually do damage spells. This was also not just a case of 'well he's not perfect'. This tank had no idea what he was doing. He did not know the basics of the job and I'm honestly suprised that he used AOE spells. I know this because I queued up for it again (I was farming glamour gear) and got another tank of the same job and I EASILY kept him alive the whole time. Why? Because this Gunbreaker used his mitigation.

[TaleraRistain]

However, it doesn't matter if I am a healer main or a tank main, if I was doing that much healing on a tank with proper cooldown usage, I'd be doing so much overhealing that I'd be considered a bad healer and a heal bot. This is a dungeon. I should not have to be using literally every cooldown and then spamming my heal button just to prevent the tank from dying. I should be able to cast a damage spell one time without the tank just dying instantly because I wasn't spamming my healing.

Well since you're not a healer main, I will give you a piece of advice. This happens. Sometimes we are going to have to do this. I have times I rarely touch anything but my dps abilities and times I am healing constantly. The majority is somewhere in the middle. Either of the other two are outliers. Your original post said this wasn't an isolated incident. All I can say is my experience is the opposite. The outliers are isolated. They happen here and there. We adjust and we most likely never see those people in roulette again. And I'm not sure if you're accurately gauging what is and isn't fair effort on our part. You can speak to the tank side. I will tell you that sometimes we have to step up and do more than the bare minimum because our team is depending on us. If that's not something you can do without feeling resentful, then maybe the healer role isn't for you.